OT “Das Boot” new generation stealth submarine

[Weta43]

How many times does this have to be repeated? Those things *don't* guide. What *makes* them fast also *makes* them unguidable.

 

You might as well be shooting unguided Phoenixes from an airplane - unless it has a nuclear warhead on it, it's not gonna hit anything.

 

Actually I read in a New Scientist a couple of years ago that there were a couple of methods of steering them under investigation at that time: either by extending surfaces out beyond the cavitated envelope, or (as mentioned in the Wikie article) by vectoring the thrust of the rocket motor used for thrust & to generate the gas bubble the torpedo travels in.

 

Also - one design they discussed in that article had a probe extending forward from the front of the torpedo that is used to vent exhaust gas to create the bubble that separates the torpedo body from the water. the front of that probe travels in the water & control surfaces on that would function. Admittedly these would be quite small, but given the speed that these things move small surfaces would create large forces + in the short transit time their targets shouldn't be moving all that far from their initial position anyway ...

[TucksonSonny]

True, but thermal layers are generally more prohibitive to active means of detection. In shallow water, if the enemy is using active SONAR or MAD gear close enough to you, you WILL be detected, no matter how silent your powerplant is. ;)

 

 

What part did you not understand?

The 212 is said to be vibration-free, extremely silent and virtually undetectable and can stay submerged for up to three weeks without surfacing and with no exhaust heat.

In simple words it can approach the latest USS Texas (SSN-775) in fire range being undetectable and destroy it with his 12 torpedoes (in 2 foward-pointing groups of 3) 6 x 533 mm torpedo tubes.

 

(Of course both ships are in the same NATO-team :D )

[wsoul2k]

 

Why is the US interested in the technology? Oh, I don't know, maybe for vessels that are intended purely for coastal defense rather than expeditionary warfare? Hydrogen fuel cells, BTW, aren't new...they have been in use in buses in Chicago, IL since the mid-90's.

 

How "shallow" IS the Persian Gulf anyway...and what does it have to do with the powerplant in use?

 

Humm i dont think so...they wanna Fuel Cells because they have being beated in all exercises by Diesel Subs.

 

Btw Fuel Cells arent new....i have friends working in car projects with fuel cells...BUT the germany project is the best in the world rigth now...this is the other reason so many wanna put their hands on it

[Guest IguanaKing]

Sonny, you need to learn a little bit about what active SONAR and MAD gear is before thinking that I don't understand. As I already said, the silence of the design won't matter if this gear gets close enough to you, because active SONAR (well...there it is, right there in the terminology...ACTIVE, which means the ship searching creates its own sound waves and listens for the echo). Then there is MAD gear. ANY submarine, no matter what the powerplant is, is going to create a magnetic anomaly in the water, and again, WILL BE DETECTED if the gear is close enough to it. These methods don't require the searching vessels to be ANY closer to him than they would have to be with ANY other type of submarine of ANY size and type. Is that clear enough for you? ;)

 

I'm not sure why you bring up the fact that its also on the NATO team. Its simple physics, not who's team its on. :D

[wsoul2k]

Sonny, you need to learn a little bit about what active SONAR and MAD gear is before thinking that I don't understand. As I already said, the silence of the design won't matter if this gear gets close enough to you, because active SONAR (well...there it is, right there in the terminology...ACTIVE, which means the ship searching creates its own sound waves and listens for the echo). Then there is MAD gear. ANY submarine, no matter what the powerplant is, is going to create a magnetic anomaly in the water, and again, WILL BE DETECTED if the gear is close enough to it. These methods don't require the searching vessels to be ANY closer to him than they would have to be with ANY other type of submarine of ANY size and type. Is that clear enough for you? ;)

 

I'm not sure why you bring up the fact that its also on the NATO team. Its simple physics, not who's team its on. :D

 

 

Hummm ..err.. cough* Chinese Diesel SUB emerging remember you of something ? :music_whistling:

 

More close than that only if they emerged ON THE CARRIER :D

[Guest IguanaKing]

Humm i dont think so...they wanna Fuel Cells because they have being beated in all exercises by Diesel Subs.

 

 

Yes, and that is why I said "...for vessels that are intended purely for coastal defense rather than expeditionary warfare." As the technology stands right now, it does not provide the range needed by the US Navy for expeditionary warfare. Again, it all comes down to simple physics and the warfighting doctrine of the US Navy. :)

[Guest IguanaKing]

Hummm ..err.. cough* Chinese Diesel SUB emerging remember you of something ? :music_whistling:

 

More close than that only if they emerged ON THE CARRIER :D

 

Again, as I ALSO already said in this thread...to employ those active devices, they have to know where to look. If the world were actually at war, things probably would have turned out a little differently for that sub during one of the many times he was forced to run near the surface on his diesel engines to recharge his batteries. He would have very likely been detected, tracked, and killed long before he got to his destination.

[Trident]

How many times does this have to be repeated? Those things *don't* guide. What *makes* them fast also *makes* them unguidable.

 

You might as well be shooting unguided Phoenixes from an airplane - unless it has a nuclear warhead on it, it's not gonna hit anything.

 

Giving a Shkval-type weapon the ability to maneuver is comparatively simple - TVC is a brilliant option here, widely used on other solid-rocket motors such as SAMs and ICBMs. What IS hard is developing a working guidance system: active or passive sonar transducers won't work because of the supercavitation bubble (same for wake-homing sensors, probably) and the incredible volume of noise from the rocket while the exaust plume of the latter makes wire guidance a practical impossibility.

 

It is possible however to make a maneuverable Shkval go for a preset interception point computed from sonar tracking of the target and uploaded to an inertial navigation system in the Shkval prior to launch. This isn't as good as a real homing system but it improves PK somewhat and has the *huge* advantage of not requiring the launcher sub to aim the weapon before firing. That is, IMHO, what "Shkval 2" is all about and it does constitute a big improvent over the original, if true.

 

Given the short range, Shkval should have a reasonble PK due to its speed. Any evasive maneuvering by the target would have to be *very* prompt in order to escape and trying to jam a non-existant guidance system is inherently futile ;)

[D-Scythe]

It is possible however to make a maneuverable Shkval go for a preset interception point computed from sonar tracking of the target and uploaded to an inertial navigation system in the Shkval prior to launch. This isn't as good as a real homing system but it improves PK somewhat and has the *huge* advantage of not requiring the launcher sub to aim the weapon before firing. That is, IMHO, what "Shkval 2" is all about and it does constitute a big improvent over the original, if true.

 

Given the short range, Shkval should have a reasonble PK due to its speed. Any evasive maneuvering by the target would have to be *very* prompt in order to escape and trying to jam a non-existant guidance system is inherently futile ;)

 

Um, the Shkval isn't THAT fast - only about 230 mph. Considering that modern torpedoes have an effective range well over 5 miles, it's still gonna take over a minute for the Shkval to cover that distance - plenty of time for evasive manuevers.

 

The Shkval is nothing but a gimmick, and when fitted with a conventional warhead is absolutely useless at all ranges except point blank range. It's non-guiding and it's loud - hardly the ideal combination for any submarine. Say what you want about it, but give me a MK 48 ADCAP anyday.

[MBot]

The Shkval is the ultimate counter-snapshot weapon. If you get a "torpedo in the water", you simply launch a Shkval down the torpedos bearing. This will not do wonders, but it will put your opponent under pressure and might force him to maneuver and cut his guiding wire. Firing snapshots down TIW bearings is pretty much standard as far as I know and the Shkval will excell in that use due to it's high speed.

 

I agree that to engage subs there are better torpedos than the Shkval, especialy at longer ranges, but it is certainly usefull to have two of these babys loaded and ready to fire for certain situations.

[Pilotasso]

What i heard is that russian torpedoes are faster, even conventional ones. The Buble curtain torpedoes are excentricities.

 

But then again I Am not very educated on naval power, Im just referring to the litle stuff I read.

 

Subs were an area the russians were very strong at, in my limited view russ subs were more on level to the american stuff than their fighters ever were.

[D-Scythe]

The Shkval is the ultimate counter-snapshot weapon. If you get a "torpedo in the water", you simply launch a Shkval down the torpedos bearing. This will not do wonders, but it will put your opponent under pressure and might force him to maneuver and cut his guiding wire. Firing snapshots down TIW bearings is pretty much standard as far as I know and the Shkval will excell in that use due to it's high speed.

 

I agree that to engage subs there are better torpedos than the Shkval, especialy at longer ranges, but it is certainly usefull to have two of these babys loaded and ready to fire for certain situations.

 

Snap shot at what? It's not like submarines advertise their position whenever they launch a torpedo - what, you think all torpedoes go hot instantly when they get launched? Like the Shkval? Usually, normal torpedoes wait until the launching submarine is some distance away before cranking up the engine.

 

Sure, you're gonna get some idea where the enemy sub is (enough to know you're under attack), but you're not going to get an exact location - certainly no data with enough precision to give your Shkval with anything more than an infinitisimal PK. There is NO pressure on the enemy submarine - do you know how exact the bearing measurement has to be in order to hit something 5, 10, 15 miles away? Worse yet, now the enemy has the EXACT fix on your location and can more accurately guide his torpedoes to you. Way to go, you're a dead man.

[Ukr_Alex]

So what about that new Silent Hunter? Anyone got any new info :P

[Trident]

Um, the Shkval isn't THAT fast - only about 230 mph. Considering that modern torpedoes have an effective range well over 5 miles, it's still gonna take over a minute for the Shkval to cover that distance - plenty of time for evasive manuevers.

 

'Only about 230mph'? Considering the fact that its quarry is likely to be moving at about 1/20th that speed it is pretty damn fast indeed.

 

The Shkval is nothing but a gimmick, and when fitted with a conventional warhead is absolutely useless at all ranges except point blank range.

 

Its maximum range is about 10km, several times less than a modern heavy-weight torpedo. It's *explicitly* made for point blank range engagements, so I fail to see that as a defect.

 

It's non-guiding and it's loud - hardly the ideal combination for any submarine. Say what you want about it, but give me a MK 48 ADCAP anyday.

 

Again, you seem to be operating on the assumption that Shkval is designed to replace conventional heavy-weight torpedoes. It is not - it is designed to supplement weapons such as the USET-80. It's all about using the right tool for the job.

 

Say what you want, but particularly in a littoral environment with progressively more stealthy SSKs I can imagine plenty of scenarios where a sub commander would appreciate having some Shkvals in his torpedo room ;)

[Ukr_Alex]

 

Subs were an area the russians were very strong at, in my limited view russ subs were more on level to the american stuff than their fighters ever were.

 

I dunno man, from what I know, which is not a lot, Russians constantly had problems with safety of their subs. A while back read a bunch of documents on the many problems that they had, crews lost etc. Especialy the nuclear subs...That was a while back, dont remember where I go the info.

But as far as I know safety of Russians subs has been nothing to brag about.

[Pilotasso]

Since 1991 Russias fleet has been on the edge I know, but thats due to the usual problem, no longer enough funds like in the old soviet times, and they fell behind since.

[MBot]

Snap shot at what? It's not like submarines advertise their position whenever they launch a torpedo - what, you think all torpedoes go hot instantly when they get launched? Like the Shkval? Usually, normal torpedoes wait until the launching submarine is some distance away before cranking up the engine.

 

Launching torpedos is a loud affair itselfe and even slow running fishes are a loud thing. Once you open fire you reveale your presence. If you have been undedected until that point, you still have the advantage that the enemy has no TMA but only a bearing on you. That is why defensive subs launch snapshots ( torpodo launches in a certain direction, not against a target ). A snapshot will most likely not threaten the offensive sub, but it will force it to maneuver. A fast weapon like ths Shkval is certainly very usefull in that situation. The faster the weapon, the less precise your TMA must be. Depending on distance and target speed, no TMA is needed at all and all that is necessary is bearing ( wich a torpedo launch will give ).

 

 

Sure, you're gonna get some idea where the enemy sub is (enough to know you're under attack), but you're not going to get an exact location - certainly no data with enough precision to give your Shkval with anything more than an infinitisimal PK. There is NO pressure on the enemy submarine - do you know how exact the bearing measurement has to be in order to hit something 5, 10, 15 miles away? Worse yet, now the enemy has the EXACT fix on your location and can more accurately guide his torpedoes to you. Way to go, you're a dead man.

 

I think you are overestimating dedection ranges vs. modern subs. Sub vs. sub comat will hardly happen beyond 10'000 yards and dedection distances can go down until 1000-2000 yards or even lower depending on circumstances. In these ranges a simple bearing and a fast weapon are enough to kill.

[Ukr_Alex]

Since 1991 Russias fleet has been on the edge I know, but thats due to the usual problem, no longer enough funds like in the old soviet times, and they fell behind since.

 

Actually I was talking about the times prior to the fall of the union, even then their safety record was not good.

[D-Scythe]

Launching torpedos is a loud affair itselfe and even slow running fishes are a loud thing. Once you open fire you reveale your presence. If you have been undedected until that point, you still have the advantage that the enemy has no TMA but only a bearing on you. That is why defensive subs launch snapshots ( torpodo launches in a certain direction, not against a target ). A snapshot will most likely not threaten the offensive sub, but it will force it to maneuver. A fast weapon like ths Shkval is certainly very usefull in that situation. The faster the weapon, the less precise your TMA must be. Depending on distance and target speed, no TMA is needed at all and all that is necessary is bearing ( wich a torpedo launch will give ).

 

The snapshot is only effective because the torpedoes can actively GUIDE themselves to target. It's like mad-dogging an AMRAAM - point and shoot, and hope your weapon finds the target itself. The Shkval with a conventional warhead is USELESS for this. You can't hit a moving target when all the information you have prior to launch is bearing information alone - it's like trying to HOJ an AMRAAM, but the AMRAAM doesn't guide.

 

I think you are overestimating dedection ranges vs. modern subs. Sub vs. sub comat will hardly happen beyond 10'000 yards and dedection distances can go down until 1000-2000 yards or even lower depending on circumstances. In these ranges a simple bearing and a fast weapon are enough to kill.

 

I'm not overestimating anything. You know sea combat happens in 3 dimensions right? Bearing information itself is useless - you need an accurate POSITION fix, especially if you're using a non-guided weapon.

 

You might as well try to hit enemy fighters with unguided rockets with RWR data alone - unless they're tipped with nuclear warheads, Shkval's are probably equally useless to engage anything.

 

'Only about 230mph'? Considering the fact that its quarry is likely to be moving at about 1/20th that speed it is pretty damn fast indeed.

 

You're kidding right? Let's do some math. Assuming a speed of 230 mph, it takes the Shkval 78 seconds to cross 10 000 yards or 10 miles. Even if the target submarine moves at 10 kts/18.2 kmph (considering modern subs have silent speeds twice that), it would've drifted ~400 m/1300 ft away in 78 seconds (the 5 mile/10120 yard engagement range). So, even if you had the EXACT position (bearing in horizontal and vertical) of the target, and launched the Shkval at the target with ZERO dispersion, The Shkval warhead needs to have a blast radius of almost half a kilometer to have any chance of killing the target evading at 10 kts.

 

The target probably won't even have to worry about staying overly silent - chances are the Shkval will make so much noise as to make any subsequent targetting difficult.

 

Say what you want, but particularly in a littoral environment with progressively more stealthy SSKs I can imagine plenty of scenarios where a sub commander would appreciate having some Shkvals in his torpedo room ;)

 

No, I know. I agree that as a quick reaction weapon at point blank range it's good to have. I just don't understand why some people regard the weapon so highly.

[GGTharos]

The snapshot is only effective because the torpedoes can actively GUIDE themselves to target. It's like mad-dogging an AMRAAM - point and shoot, and hope your weapon finds the target itself. The Shkval with a conventional warhead is USELESS for this. You can't hit a moving target when all the information you have prior to launch is bearing information alone - it's like trying to HOJ an AMRAAM, but the AMRAAM doesn't guide.

 

Not quite. The distances are smaller, the targets much bigger, and the 'playing field' much more limited.

 

I'm not overestimating anything. You know sea combat happens in 3 dimensions right? Bearing information itself is useless - you need an accurate POSITION fix, especially if you're using a non-guided weapon.

 

Compared to Air to Air, it's only 'kinda sorta' 3D. There are plenty enough factors, but a shkval detonating near the target won't leave it entirely unscathed.

 

You might as well try to hit enemy fighters with unguided rockets with RWR data alone - unless they're tipped with nuclear warheads, Shkval's are probably equally useless to engage anything.

 

Well, they did have nuclear capability, but even with conventional warheads - getting your sub's ass moving creates that's probably a reasonable CEP for detonation against a sub within 9km.

 

You're kidding right? Let's do some math. Assuming a speed of 230 mph, it takes the Shkval 78 seconds to cross 10 000 yards or 10 miles.

That's 7 miles...at best, IIRC

 

Even if the target submarine moves at 10 kts/18.2 kmph (considering modern subs have silent speeds twice that), it would've drifted ~400 m/1300 ft away in 78 seconds (the 5 mile/10120 yard engagement range). So, even if you had the EXACT position (bearing in horizontal and vertical) of the target, and launched the Shkval at the target with ZERO dispersion, The Shkval warhead needs to have a blast radius of almost half a kilometer to have any chance of killing the target evading at 10 kts.

 

But the sub itself is also quite long typically - you therefore launch a spread - the 'original' shkval is to be employed as a revenge weapon in a way either resembling good old U-boat unguided fishes, or with a nuke warhead, always with timed detonation.

 

The target probably won't even have to worry about staying overly silent - chances are the Shkval will make so much noise as to make any subsequent targetting difficult.

 

That's unlikely ;)

 

No, I know. I agree that as a quick reaction weapon at point blank range it's good to have. I just don't understand why some people regard the weapon so highly.

 

Because it is pretty potent, and so is its psychological effect.

[D-Scythe]

GGTharos, I'm gonna have to disagree with you and just come out and say the Shkval is basically useless in every scenario save a last ditch, point blank defense weapon. If you disagree with me, just read this article and disagree with the author.

 

http://www.military.com/soldiertech/0,14632,Soldiertech_060420_shkval,,00.html

 

This guy puts my views on the Shkval in words far better than I ever could, and apparently he has some credentials as well.

 

If you're still unconvinced, well, let's just agree to disagree.

[GGTharos]

That is a very amusing article ;)

 

The most amusing thing too, is his description of how the Shkval beocmes vulnerable to 'conventional evasion methods' when it slows down :D

 

Didn't someone tell this guy that conventional torpedoes do exactly the same thing to increase their 'look' opportunities? :D

Ya know, thatmakes it sounds like its a GOOD thing. :D

[D-Scythe]

That is a very amusing article ;)

 

The most amusing thing too, is his description of how the Shkval beocmes vulnerable to 'conventional evasion methods' when it slows down :D

 

Didn't someone tell this guy that conventional torpedoes do exactly the same thing to increase their 'look' opportunities? :D

Ya know, thatmakes it sounds like its a GOOD thing. :D

 

What? I think you misread him - I clearly got the impression that by slowing down the Shkval becomes vulnerable just as an ordinary torpedo would to evasive manuevers (which American submariners are well-versed), and would thus give up its speed advantage.

 

"Russia is developing a version of a supercavitating torpedo that does have some artificial intelligence and homing sensors including sonar. The problem is that for the sonar to work, the Shkval has to slow down drastically, in spurts, so it won't be blinded by its own noise and has a chance at acquiring and reacquiring its prey to make the needed terminal course corrections. This seeming enhancement to the Shkval introduces a substantial Achilles' heel: When moving slowly, and relying on conventional sensors to home on its target, the Shkval becomes vulnerable to all the standard evasive tactics and countermeasures with which American submariners are exceedingly well versed. The Shkval, during such an attack, also repeatedly forfeits its one apparent advantage, its speed, before having to accelerate again. Rumor has it that Moscow is trying to make a wire-guided Shkval, but trailing a wire that doesn't snap at 300 knots, or melt in the searing heat of the rocket exhaust, or cause the vacuum bubble to collapse enough for the whole weapon to suddenly tear itself apart, seem daunting problems indeed."

 

Please at least re-read that one paragraph, if you're gonna pretend to have read the whole article ;)

[p_o_d_2_2]

i thought this guy brought up some valid points, i'm not sure about supersonic dart guns and loud speakers sending out shock waves to kill torpedoes, but i have to agree with him about the Shkval

[GGTharos]

What? I think you misread him - I clearly got the impression that by slowing down the Shkval becomes vulnerable just as an ordinary torpedo would to evasive manuevers (which American submariners are well-versed), and would thus give up its speed advantage.

 

"Russia is developing a version of a supercavitating torpedo that does have some artificial intelligence and homing sensors including sonar. The problem is that for the sonar to work, the Shkval has to slow down drastically, in spurts, so it won't be blinded by its own noise and has a chance at acquiring and reacquiring its prey to make the needed terminal course corrections. This seeming enhancement to the Shkval introduces a substantial Achilles' heel: When moving slowly, and relying on conventional sensors to home on its target, the Shkval becomes vulnerable to all the standard evasive tactics and countermeasures with which American submariners are exceedingly well versed. The Shkval, during such an attack, also repeatedly forfeits its one apparent advantage, its speed, before having to accelerate again. Rumor has it that Moscow is trying to make a wire-guided Shkval, but trailing a wire that doesn't snap at 300 knots, or melt in the searing heat of the rocket exhaust, or cause the vacuum bubble to collapse enough for the whole weapon to suddenly tear itself apart, seem daunting problems indeed."

 

Please at least re-read that one paragraph, if you're gonna pretend to have read the whole article ;)

 

Hey, we've got wire guided MISSILES who wires won't snap at 300m/s. Don't gomme that ;)

Better yet, the guy's on crack. If the torp slow down 2km from the target and then accelerates back towards it, exactly how far out of the way can they get? Not very far. If it slows to 'look' a little closer, it's worse.

 

This completely /destroys/ the tempo a submarine captain is used to. The torpedo is closing much faster than it did before, so much as four times as fast, if not more. I think it changes things /considerably/.

 

The guy shooting the Shkval has a /lot/ of time to think about what to do with your torpedo without a man-in-the-loop after he kills you.