OT “Das Boot” new generation stealth submarine

[D-Scythe]

There are currently about as many submarines with a silent patrol speed *significantly* beyond 10kts in the whole world as there are fingers on one of my hands. Considering how long the Shkval has been in service I call the relevance of recent developments like Seawolf and Virginia to this discussion into question. Trying to second-guess the reasons for introducing Shkval two decades ago just because there are *now* submarines on the horizon that have a pretty good chance of evading one seems pretty far fetched.

 

Try again - the 688(I) Los Angeles class has a silent/tactical speed of 10-15 kts.

 

Exactly - when the other guy knows where you are well enough to shoot at you then there's no longer any point in hiding.

 

If the enemy has not cut the wires to his torps yet, chances are that he will not know the PRECISE location of you (or his firing solution may be susceptible to errors). But please, forfeit that advantage when using your decoys/counter measures and ping around to give the enemy (and his torps) your exact location. Oh, furthermore, if you have any friends around, please, reveal their locations as well. That would be *great*.

 

I'm sure they'll thank you when they die a torpedo salvo later.

 

Get his position and speed vector with your active sonar and give him a well-aimed Shkval to think about, but I suppose if D-Scythe seriously believes the shooter will not lead his target before firing a Shkval then we have no argument ;)

 

Wow, you think you're gonna hit the target because you lead it? That's laughable man. I'm sure you're not gonna find many sub captains who are willing NOT to partake in the very basic evasive manuevers while Shkval's are inbound.

 

Better yet, why don't you say your target is going to walk into your Shkval? They are going to pick it up on sonar, and drive their sub right into it. Thus proving the lethality of the Shkval as a weapon.

 

Congratulations, you proved me wrong.

 

Again: Shkval-rebuttals, such as the article D-Scythe posted, which are based on the assumption that the threat submarine is armed with Shkvals and Shkvals only completely miss the point of this weapon. A submarine armed exclusively with Shkvals makes about as much sense as a F-15 loaded only with AIM-9s - but that doesn't mean the Sidewinder is useless as part of a balanced A/A-loadout.

 

What are you talking about? We're talking about a SPECIFIC scenario here - a non-point blank return shot against an attack submarine. I'm saying it's useless unless it's point blank; you guys seem to think that it will make the enemy shat his pants, and if he's lucky enough to survive, to run away scared.

 

THere were some SWIMOUT trials, but they didn't succeed as well as they could have for what were probably expected and predicted reasons.

 

What expected and predicted reasons? AFAIK, such measures still reduce the overall noise signature of an attacking submarine. Any reduction in noise is welcome IMO - who cares if it doesn't completely eliminate noise? For example, Rafale has lotsa goodies to lower its RCS anyway, even though it's not a stealth aircraft. Like that's a bad thing?

[Trident]

Try again - the 688(I) Los Angeles class has a silent/tactical speed of 15 kts.

 

Is that significantly more than 10 when subs like the Seawolf do more than 20? Not to mention the fact that we're always looking at nothing more than ballpark figures and downright speculation when talking about submarine speeds - or do you have some privileged sources that I don't ;)

 

Wow, you think you're gonna hit the target because you lead it? That's laughable man. I'm sure you're not gonna find many sub captains who are willing NOT to partake in the very basic evasive manuevers while Shkval's are inbound.

 

I'm certainly going to improve my chances exponentially. Your example was an absolute worst case scenario for the Shkval at maximum range and no lead / inertial correction whatsoever. Given a target that is commonly about 100m long itself and that might well be all it takes. It's by no means a guaranteed hit, but then neither is the conventional torpedo, no matter how much you act like it.

 

Better yet, why don't you say your target is going to walk into your Shkval? They are going to pick it up on sonar, and drive their sub right into it. Thus proving the lethality of the Shkval as a weapon.

 

Congratulations, you proved me wrong.

 

Better yet, if the Shkval is so utterly pointless, why was it ever developed, tested and eventually even deployed? Logic dictates that it can't be all that bad, you can spend all day poking theoretical holes into any weapon and its employment concept if you only want to :rolleyes:

 

What are you talking about? We're talking about a SPECIFIC scenario here - a non-point blank return shot against an attack submarine. I'm saying it's useless unless it's point blank; you guys seem to think that it will make the enemy shat his pants, and if he's lucky enough to survive, to run away scared.

 

In said point blank range engagement yes, I personally would certainly fill my underwear if I got shot at with Shkvals. If the other guy is stupid enough to try to stalk me with Shkvals from 30km away with no heavy-weight torpedos at his disposal then I won't break a sweat. You keep assuming conditions that are biased against the Shkval - and if that does actually happen count on a USET-80 or a similar conventional torpedo being used in the real world.

 

In a way we're agreeing, but next thing you'll dismiss Shkvals as a waste of time again. Which clearly they are not, if they are a useful short-range weapon, especially since short range engagements are going to be the norm in the ever more important littoral theatre (aren't they actually back to seriously investigating light-weight torpedos for the Virginia class again, in order to trade range for more weapons aboard?).

 

Anyway, I'm out of this thread :D

[GGTharos]

First of all, 'tactical speed' has more to do with your SONAR being able to pick something up at that speed, and less with your own 'silence'. 2-3kt is SILENT RUNNING. Everything else causes flow noise. You don't have to like it, it just happens to be reality.

 

The SWIMOUT trials I would imagine had issues with the EXTREMELY toxic gas emitted by a torpedo's powerplant staying put in the tube and wafting back into the torpedo room.

 

 

Pinging an enemy who has fired on you IS the way to go if you haven't detected him or if your TMA blows. That IS the way it is done, get over yourself and quit dissing it. It is /REAL/.

 

And if you're not at point blanc, my Shkval has a nuke equipped. I just won, okay? ;)

[wsoul2k]

You can send up an E-2C ... if the sub surfaces it'll be found.

 

he will never surface.....he will use the snorkel...and it will be 250 nm in the worst scenario ( only 50% batery charge remaining )

 

i really doubt anything can pickup the snorkel so far away

 

the sub after that will need aprox 5 hours to fully recharge its baterys

 

PS: If the target was the carrier how the E-2C will land or takeoff if there is no more carrier :)

[D-Scythe]

First of all, 'tactical speed' has more to do with your SONAR being able to pick something up at that speed, and less with your own 'silence'. 2-3kt is SILENT RUNNING. Everything else causes flow noise. You don't have to like it, it just happens to be reality.

 

Actual definition of "tactical speed": The tactical speed of a submarine is that speed at which the submarine is quiet enough to remain undetected while tracking enemy submarines effectively, with sources of self-noise reduced to the point that other submarines and ships can be detected using onboard passive sonar sensors.

 

But instead of accepting the actual definition, I'll just accept yours because you're the self-proclaimed victor, despite not really understanding how active sonar is employed in attack submarines. I'm by no means an underwater combat expert, but you seem to be. For that, cheers.

 

BTW, toxic fumes? That might've been in a problem in WWII when some torpedoes started to swim out. But half a century later? That's stretching it man.

[GGTharos]

Nope. VERY toxic. Dowright deadly - that fuel is -nasty-

[D-Scythe]

Nope. VERY toxic. Dowright deadly - that fuel is -nasty-

 

And nobody since WWII was clever enough to think "hey, let's find some way to protect the crew from toxic fumes!" until me. I should get a patent or something on that right away.

 

Anyway I'm out - got millions of dollars to make from my new invention. The US Navy will be all over me.

[MBot]

Actual definition of "tactical speed": The tactical speed of a submarine is that speed at which the submarine is quiet enough to remain undetected while tracking enemy submarines effectively, with sources of self-noise reduced to the point that other submarines and ships can be detected using onboard passive sonar sensors.

 

Since the speed at wich point you seriously degrade your own sonar performance is very low, GGTharos is very right that by your own definition tactical spead is mostly dependant on your own ability to listen. The Seawolve might have the ability to drive relative stealthy at 20 kts ( though I have never heard of 15 kt for the 688(i), rather 5 knots ), its own sonar performance will seriously degrade above anything than 5 kts and the sonar screens will simply wash out at about 15 kts. This has nothing to do with technology employed, it's simply water flow noise.

 

Also I would love to hear about the "correct" way to employ active sonar on attack subs.

 

 

D-Scythe, you seem to know a bit about submarine warfare. You might enjoy playing Dangerous Waters by Sonalyst ( I think you never played it by what you write ). It is a real great submarine warfare simulation wich I am sure you would like. Most stuff I know about subs I learned trough playing 688(I), Sub Command and Dangerous Waters ( and following the communitys a bit ). It might sound silly to base your opinion on a game, but I own quite a couple of books about submarine warfare and I have never learned so much about the subject as by playing the Sonalyst simulations. The pace of subs vs sub combat is very special, I think you never get the overall feeling for scale, time, ranges and angels without doing TMA once yourselfe. Submarines are by nature very secretive ( much more than our fighters ), so it is certainly the closest you get without joining the navy.

Man, all this talking makes me eager to fire up Dangerous Waters again :)

[D-Scythe]

Since the speed at wich point you seriously degrade your own sonar performance is very low, GGTharos is very right that by your own definition tactical spead is mostly dependant on your own ability to listen. The Seawolve might have the ability to drive relative stealthy at 20 kts ( though I have never heard of 15 kt for the 688(i), rather 5 knots ), its own sonar performance will seriously degrade above anything than 5 kts and the sonar screens will simply wash out at about 15 kts. This has nothing to do with technology employed, it's simply water flow noise.

 

Again, in the scenario outlined (revenge Shkval shot), the target is performing evasive manuevers, so the point of loss in detection ability is moot. You already have fishes in the water, who cares how fast you're going once you cut the wires?

 

Furthermore, if the enemy makes the mistake of actively pinging for the revenge shot, you're passive sonar systems are gonna pick him up regardless.

 

Also I would love to hear about the "correct" way to employ active sonar on attack subs.

 

The correct way is that you *don't*, or try not to. Active sonar is great for fast moving platforms like helicopters, but it's disadvantages are especially crippling to a submarine that wants to stay as stealthy as possible.

 

If an attack sub ever finds itself in a situation where needs to employ active sonar when under attack, it's screwed. You reveal *everything* by actively pinging, and if the enemy torpedos aren't smart enough to distinguish your decoys from your submarine alone the enemy can just wire-guide them onto the right target (that would be the actively pinging *you*) with ease. On the other hand, for you, pinging doesn't allow you to identify the target, nor does it necessarily allow you to distinguish the real target from the decoys.

 

In summary, you basically showed him where you exactly are, screwed over your decoys, etc. - basically shot all your defensive measures to hell. So, taking this all into account, would you honestly as a submarine captain decide to turn on the active sonar to come up with a firing solution for a Shkval shot that almost certainly won't hit an evading, highly agile enemy attack sub? Even if you lead the target, which increases your PK exponentially according to Trident (he forgot to mention that a PK of 0^X is still ZERO).

 

Fine, that was my last post. I'm out.

[MBot]

You reveal *everything* by actively pinging

 

This is simply wrong. You reveal A: your presence and B: your bearing. Assuming that you are beeing fired upon, it seem pretty clear that the enemy knows your there and if he has a passive sonar track ( wich we can strongly assume when you are beeing fired upon ) he also has your bearing. So by going active you wont give away any informations your opponent wont already have. You have much to gain and few to lose by using active sonar in a desperate situation.

 

 

There is the possibilty though to give away your presence to "3rd party" enemys that haven't dedected you yet though. When going active this is a serious consideration that depends on the situation.

[Force_Feedback]

On a sidenote, does the Mk.48 ADCAP fuel really smell like fresh peaches? Got that from some kind of B-movie with some under-arctic expedition gone wrong, cause a 688 sunk to 2000feet.

[GGTharos]

And nobody since WWII was clever enough to think "hey, let's find some way to protect the crew from toxic fumes!" until me. I should get a patent or something on that right away.

 

Anyway I'm out - got millions of dollars to make from my new invention. The US Navy will be all over me.

 

Yeah, they were, and they still haven't found an alternative, so good luck ;)

[Groove]

On a sidenote, does the Mk.48 ADCAP fuel really smell like fresh peaches? Got that from some kind of B-movie with some under-arctic expedition gone wrong, cause a 688 sunk to 2000feet.

 

You have to join the US Navy to stick your nose into MK-48 fuel :D But dont ask me about the clearance level (i think top secret).