Pilotasso Posted January 1, 2007 Posted January 1, 2007 900 but how many trully capable? Thats the thing. The misconception is that having many is better then having few advanced aircraft. Besides, you can have 900 frames, but do you have enough new/advanced weapons to equip all of these frames. I know someone would come up with the numbers, but bear in mind that in 1991 chinas AF consisted in 4500 aircraft but mainly of Mig-19/21 copies, neither of wich were up to minimum modern standards and barely able to put any fight. Chinas best fighter was the J-8 finback... a Su-15 clone... Iraq had Mirage F-1's Mig-23's 25's and 29's, and Iraq enjoyed a better airworthiness than you seem to hint. Chinas Af is now much much better, great progress was made but, their best fighters, the J-11 Su-30 and J-10 specialy the J-xx's cant quite compete with the numbers and quality of their counterparts... F-16, F-15, F-18 and F-22. Take a big chunk out of those quality sino jets and the rest wont be willing to fight anymore or worse. .
Meyvn Posted January 1, 2007 Posted January 1, 2007 Which the US would. :smilewink: What makes you feel so sure? Are you G.W.Bush?:megalol:
hitman Posted January 1, 2007 Posted January 1, 2007 Actually...Taiwan isnt a recognized government by the USA...BUT...yeah its safe to say that the US would back up Taiwan in a conflict.
Pilotasso Posted January 1, 2007 Posted January 1, 2007 ...but the nature of that backup is secret, it can go from simply suplying more weapons, to nuclear holocaust. The only scenario that is excluded IMHO is full invasion, even the US would be choked with that. .
nscode Posted January 2, 2007 Posted January 2, 2007 They would my 6... the only reason they are making tw think they will is to get cheaper PC components. Never forget that World War III was not Cold for most of us.
tflash Posted January 2, 2007 Posted January 2, 2007 Anyway it seems to me a very interesting hybrid Lockon / F4:AF-like scenario. Swap the balkans, Crimea or Korea map with the Taiwan strait map, and put two American carrier battle groups in it. You can then scatter a few hundred Flankers + J-10's (why not to current Lockon standard?) Against the Hornet/Superhornet laden CG + the Taiwan F-16's and Chingkwo thingy. At the moment there are no F-15's and F-22's in the equation imho. The biggest problem is the tremendous firepower of the carrier battle group; its surface combat ships are likely to blow half of these flankers and J-10's out of the sky. [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]
hitman Posted January 2, 2007 Posted January 2, 2007 They would my 6... the only reason they are making tw think they will is to get cheaper PC components. Thats utter rubbish. Guess you never heard of the views the USA has against communism. We dont support Taiwan's government simply because China still claims rights to the island, but we would back them up because Taiwan has an independantly elected democratic government.
GGTharos Posted January 2, 2007 Posted January 2, 2007 Yeah. This has nothing to do with capitalism at all. Nada :D No business involvement at all! [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC] Reminder: SAM = Speed Bump :D I used to play flight sims like you, but then I took a slammer to the knee - Yoda
hitman Posted January 2, 2007 Posted January 2, 2007 Take it you havent been to wal mart lately, GG? Last time I seen ANYTHING that wasnt made in China (aside from Korea) was a few years ago before NAFTA. Not that Im shopping the entire wal mart for Q-Tips or cinnamon flavored dental floss...but seems like everywhere I go its made in China. Even my boots were made in China...and my Levi jeans. Them Roman Catholic candles you find there...made in China. Them Martha Stewart towels you buy in K-mart...guess what? Not made in ROC. Granted that most computer components are made in Taiwan...but theres also Sony, Samsung, a few other Korean companies to be named...and a lot more japanese products as well. And if you ask me, Japan is the forerunner for technology...not Taiwan.
Meyvn Posted January 3, 2007 Posted January 3, 2007 Thats utter rubbish. Guess you never heard of the views the USA has against communism. We dont support Taiwan's government simply because China still claims rights to the island, but we would back them up because Taiwan has an independantly elected democratic government. Then why U.S. not supporting TW to declare independence? I am pretty sure China will attack TW if they did that. Then U.S. could send out their mighty F-22 to destroy the last most evil "communism" country in the world. :megalol:
Pilotasso Posted January 3, 2007 Posted January 3, 2007 Granted that most computer components are made in Taiwan...but theres also Sony, Samsung, a few other Korean companies to be named...and a lot more japanese products as well. And if you ask me, Japan is the forerunner for technology...not Taiwan. Remenber that quake years ago wich damaged and destroyed a few factories in Taiwan? PC133 SDRAM sky rocketed to 2-3 times more expensive, I had to swap a module under warranty and the company I bought it from had a loss equivalent twice the money I spent the time when I bought it. Just as an example. So japan was the forefather of technology in the 60's- and 70's. Who cares about sentimentalism now? :D They no longer have the monopoly of electronics and became just another big exporter like korea and Taiwan. .
hitman Posted January 3, 2007 Posted January 3, 2007 Then why U.S. not supporting TW to declare independence? I am pretty sure China will attack TW if they did that. Then U.S. could send out their mighty F-22 to destroy the last most evil "communism" country in the world. :megalol: Ever heard of nuclear deterrence? Dont know bout you but I hardly think the average american really wishes to see mushroom clouds in their neighborhoods. Not me, I wouldnt mind a bit...but just as long as it wasnt in my backyard. But then again...I live next door to NORAD. Heh...go figure that one out.
Guest IguanaKing Posted January 3, 2007 Posted January 3, 2007 Remenber that quake years ago wich damaged and destroyed a few factories in Taiwan? PC133 SDRAM sky rocketed to 2-3 times more expensive, I had to swap a module under warranty and the company I bought it from had a loss equivalent twice the money I spent the time when I bought it. Just as an example. So japan was the forefather of technology in the 60's- and 70's. Who cares about sentimentalism now? :D They no longer have the monopoly of electronics and became just another big exporter like korea and Taiwan. If you are referring to the 7.2 earthquake in 1995, that was centered in Kobe, Japan...and yes it had a HUGE impact on the IC market. There was a good-sized quake in Taiwan in 2002, but I hope you weren't still using PC133 SDRAM at that time. :smilewink:
hitman Posted January 3, 2007 Posted January 3, 2007 but I hope you weren't still using PC133 SDRAM at that time. :smilewink: I sure as hell was...
Pilotasso Posted January 3, 2007 Posted January 3, 2007 It was the one arround 2000-2002 period (cant quite remenber the exact date). PC133 was the popular modules then. The quake was felt in Taiwan mainly. I saw firemen trying to put out a fire at a smi-conductor factory...I guessed right because the prices of certain components went high in the space of days. Mobos and memory mainly. I had a good laugh at the store when I went to replace those faulty modules that were now twice the price...ha-ha! :D :P .
Meyvn Posted January 3, 2007 Posted January 3, 2007 Ever heard of nuclear deterrence? Dont know bout you but I hardly think the average american really wishes to see mushroom clouds in their neighborhoods. Not me, I wouldnt mind a bit...but just as long as it wasnt in my backyard. But then again...I live next door to NORAD. Heh...go figure that one out. Of course I do. That's why I think it is so funny why some people felt so sure that U.S. will get involved. Will U.S. be so sure they could win the war just because U.S. AF is much stronger than China's AF?
Meyvn Posted January 3, 2007 Posted January 3, 2007 about the Earthquake, it is on 1999.9.21, which is 7.6 it is lucky that the earthquake is mainly on the middle part of the island.
Guest IguanaKing Posted January 3, 2007 Posted January 3, 2007 Of course I do. That's why I think it is so funny why some people felt so sure that U.S. will get involved. Will U.S. be so sure they could win the war just because U.S. AF is much stronger than China's AF? Here's a link for you. This supposition on the part of some here, including myself, was not just something pulled out of the air. :smilewink: http://www.fas.org/news/taiwan/1996/index.html
hitman Posted January 3, 2007 Posted January 3, 2007 Of course I do. That's why I think it is so funny why some people felt so sure that U.S. will get involved. Will U.S. be so sure they could win the war just because U.S. AF is much stronger than China's AF? True...but we dont put Aegis class cruisers in Taiwanese ports for the sakes of a few memory chips. Get GG back in here and he'll proclaim that the F-22's would own the entire chinese airforce, lol... The USA can and will stand up for Taiwan (as we have many times before) against Mainland China. Mostly so because of what I allready have said: Taiwan has an independantly elected democratic government. Logical reasoning here is that China would only use nuclear weapons if confronted with the invasion of mainland China. IIRC, we have more nukes than they do, so this would take that argument out of question. MAD comes back to mind. Believe it or not, the USA will back Taiwan over a conflict with China. Just because they are not recognized by either the US or NATO doesnt mean we wont support them in their time of need. Iraq ring a bell? South Korea? How about South Vietnam? History always repeats itself. Taiwan isnt much more different. Edit: I am not saying that the US has engaged in shooting with China over Taiwan. I just wanted to make that clear.
Weta43 Posted January 4, 2007 Posted January 4, 2007 I realise this is pushing the no-politics envelope, but the discussion is about whether the US would defend Taiwan, & the answer to that is obviously political & it's fairly obvious the US would go to war to defend Taiwan: both in their desire to maintain their position as the worlds pre-eminent superpower, which requires them to maintain 'face' & act when certain lines are crossed, but also for the same reason they backed & armed Chiang Kai-shek & the Kuomintang (KMT) against the communists before they fled to Taiwan & have done ever since. I'd suggest not because their government was democratically elected - the KMT ran a repressive dictatorship for a considerable part of Taiwan's post WW2 history - more because China's communist government limits a much more important freedom - the individual freedom to own capital (Cuba's sin also). In the US government's drive to spread freemarket democracies around the world, you'll notice where the democracy bit comes. (Consider: faced with a choice between backing a right-wing dictatorship coup (& or insurgency) or a democratically elected socialist government in South America, which side has the US historically come down? ). Cheers.
Pilotasso Posted January 4, 2007 Posted January 4, 2007 were suposed to speak of J-10's not politics :P I dont like it when the chinese pass as bad guys, although not implicit but seems to be always "the other side". .
Guest IguanaKing Posted January 4, 2007 Posted January 4, 2007 It was the one arround 2000-2002 period (cant quite remenber the exact date). PC133 was the popular modules then. Ahhh...roger that, they were the biggest sellers because they were previous generation tech and were cheap. In 1999, I built my first rig and I used the brand new PC800 RDRAM as memory. DDR266 followed shortly after, but DDR stuck around because of the cheaper manufacturing process. I gave that old computer to my mother, and she still uses it to this day. :D After the Kobe quake in 1995, I managed to run into a guy at a computer show who was selling 4 1MB sticks for only $25.00 per stick. Needless to say, I scooped them up because those sticks were retailing for 5-10 times that amount due to the Kobe quake. :D
hitman Posted January 4, 2007 Posted January 4, 2007 but also for the same reason they backed & armed Chiang Kai-shek & the Kuomintang (KMT) against the communists before they fled to Taiwan & have done ever since. Exactly.
nscode Posted January 4, 2007 Posted January 4, 2007 Logical reasoning here is that China would only use nuclear weapons if confronted with the invasion of mainland China. IIRC, we have more nukes than they do, so this would take that argument out of question. MAD comes back to mind. here's a newsflash: it wouldnt matter who has more. it would be the end of the world. get that? Never forget that World War III was not Cold for most of us.
tflash Posted January 4, 2007 Posted January 4, 2007 were suposed to speak of J-10's not politics :P Indeed, back to topic please! I was only speaking about an interesting *scenario*, like the ones we have in Lockon and F4:AF. Nothing else. What we can discuss is how the Hornet/Superhornet (on CBG) and F-16 + Ching Kuo F-CK-1 C/D (Taiwan) relate to J-10 and Flankers (Su-27SK/Su-30MKK) in China (I think we all agree that the other 4000 fighters are not really up to spec! ;) ) The European edition of Combat Aircraft Vol 7. no 9 has a special on the J-10. They estimate a projected payload in excess of 9500 kg (19850lb!) and a max combat radius of some 1370nm (hi-lo-hi) or 710nm (lo-lo-lo). Compared to a Mig-29, these are impressive figures, one of the reasons the Chinese choose to develop J-10 over acquiring multi-role Mig-29's. Powerplant is an AL-31FN with max thrust of 125,5KN. Problem is the radar: US blocked further Israeli assistance, so it will be a Russian Zhuk derivative. Flight performance should be very good, follwiing the Israeli lavi input. It wont lack in numbers: the Chinese already signed a contract for 300 AL-31FN engines! [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]
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