Flight model thoughts

[sdflyer]

9-50 - the aircraft is still being flared, no touchdown. VSI is zero... 9-51 first touch at VSI = 0, bounced then 9-54 sits on the ground and runs.

 

 

 

Make sense. Thanks

 

 

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[sdflyer]

Flight model thoughts

 

So VSI 500fpm translates to around 200fpm actual touch down ?

 

 

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[Weta43]

I think the point is 0 fpm translates to 0 fpm

He descends, he flares, @ touchdown VSI reads ~ 0

 

See image just before (first) touchdown (before the bounce)

VSI just[/] below zero.

 

Then you see the bump as he touches, the bounce, getting set again, and the bump as he lands again.

Edited August 25, 2017 by Weta43

[sdflyer]

I think the point is 0 fpm translates to 0 fpm

He descends, he flares, @ touchdown VSI reads ~ 0

 

See image just before (first) touchdown (before the bounce)

VSI just[/] below zero.

 

Then you see the bump as he touches, the bounce, getting set again, and the bump as he lands again.

 

 

 

When he settles though on the roll out it goes slightly above

 

 

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[Reflected]

I don't find the Spit bounces much as long as you do a perfect 3 pointer and you don't flare too high. What I find really odd, is the tailwheel.

 

Try to do a hard braking, don't mind your prop. When the tail falls back after stopping it bounces more than a basketball! I don't think I need to provide evidence to prove how absurd it is. Drop half a plane's weight on a tiny piano wheel like that, it sure won't bounce 8 times, as high back up as it was originally.

[Anatoli-Kagari9]

Just a thumbs up for the way our Spitfire IX is modelled in DCS...

 

There are certainly many details, one of them is the way it's elevator is most of the time deflected down, inflight, at almost any trim settings, which pretty much agrees with every single video of real Spitfires inflight, recorded from the cockpit, like in this one:

 

 

Our DCS Spitfire perfectly agrees with this peculiarity !

[DeepDrummer]

He is: ;)

 

https://virpil.com/images/stories/virtuemart/product/MT-50_GripGREY_02.jpg

 

https://vkbcontrollers.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/08/MCG-captions-2.jpg

 

That is soo nice. Thanks. I keep watching those.

[Alfredson007]

1. Extremely exaggerated elevator authority

2. Extremely exaggerated ailerons authority

 

While i love the spit's very dynamic take off, i also find it a bit frustrating, when the tail starts to come up, if i even VEEERY slightly push the nose down a second too early it is causing problems. If i do not push the stick, the plane might start to bounce and almost tries to take off too early. Even the slightest difference in elevator trim plays rather large role here, and the "correct" -1 negative is harder than neutral. Reminds me of the DCS P51D where the "correct" 5-6 right rudder trim caused more troubles than help.

 

I use curves, and the spitfire is totally manageable, i've done takeoffs that are _very_ straight, but the tolerances are very very small. This probably is mostly due to lack of feel / crappy controls compared to the real thing but there is something else too. Many real spit pilots force tail up very early and they have no any issues keeping it straight, in DCS that is so dangerous it is better left undone. What i am trying to say here, the less you control the easier it is. The controls are so sensitive that pilot induced "oscillations" are more than probable.

 

Don't get me wrong, this is easily the best WW2 plane ever simulated for PC in my mind, and i've tried many of them. For me, while on the another hand i love the challenge, i also find it a bit frustrating, because it does feel it is a lot harder than in real life. But of course, if it is realistic, it also should be (when using crappy pc controllers (yes they are all crap compared to real thing basicly), and not having any physical feel.

 

What about gusty crosswind take offs, i don't even want to see where that leads =)) :joystick:

[Anatoli-Kagari9]

While i love the spit's very dynamic take off, i also find it a bit frustrating, when the tail starts to come up, if i even VEEERY slightly push the nose down a second too early it is causing problems. If i do not push the stick, the plane might start to bounce and almost tries to take off too early. Even the slightest difference in elevator trim plays rather large role here, and the "correct" -1 negative is harder than neutral. Reminds me of the DCS P51D where the "correct" 5-6 right rudder trim caused more troubles than help.

 

I use curves, and the spitfire is totally manageable, i've done takeoffs that are _very_ straight, but the tolerances are very very small. This probably is mostly due to lack of feel / crappy controls compared to the real thing but there is something else too. Many real spit pilots force tail up very early and they have no any issues keeping it straight, in DCS that is so dangerous it is better left undone. What i am trying to say here, the less you control the easier it is. The controls are so sensitive that pilot induced "oscillations" are more than probable.

 

Don't get me wrong, this is easily the best WW2 plane ever simulated for PC in my mind, and i've tried many of them. For me, while on the another hand i love the challenge, i also find it a bit frustrating, because it does feel it is a lot harder than in real life. But of course, if it is realistic, it also should be (when using crappy pc controllers (yes they are all crap compared to real thing basicly), and not having any physical feel.

 

What about gusty crosswind take offs, i don't even want to see where that leads =)) :joystick:

 

 

Well, I agree, but believe me, the x-wind if dealed with correctly isn't really a problem with this module.

 

 

I use the default landing and takeoff situs and set a x-wind of around 6m/s ( around 12 knot ), and it's still manageable...

[Yo-Yo]

Nothing that's hard...

 

 

 

Updated.

Edited August 28, 2017 by Yo-Yo

[Alfredson007]

I am certain i could do x-wind takeoff well enough (honestly, haven't even tried), but if i'd taxi on to the runway and do it (rather than spawning dead straight which makes takeoffs much easier), i'd be like... "is this my last day of my life or not" .. :D

 

I also fly the Mig-21, that is pretty hard to land well. But it's different kind of challenge. When you start to master it, you will land pretty well after many weeks without flying. When i do not fly the spit for a week, i almost feel i need to re-learn the whole takeoff again. I mean, i do not crash the plane, the takeoffs might (or might not) be quite swervy. Even pretty good takeoffs end up looking surprisingly ugly when reviewed on the outside.

 

It might very well be, that the hyper-realistic ww2 plane and desktop sims are very tough combo.

[sdflyer]

Nothing that's hard...

 

 

 

 

What are joystick curves on that video ?

 

 

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[Yo-Yo]

What are joystick curves on that video ?

 

 

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Linear.

[sdflyer]

Linear.

 

 

 

Can you please give numbers for pitch, roll, and yaw (dead zone, saturation and so on)?

 

 

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[Alfredson007]

Can you please give numbers for pitch, roll, and yaw (dead zone, saturation and so on)?

 

 

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I think he means that everything is default "pure" mode. No alternations. He must have a looong stick. I find the T16000 can handle linear profile but it's not fun, i like to have some movements to feel better i am actually doing something, while i know these planes are sensitive in real life too. (not as sensitive as t16000 with linear profile though:D)

[Alfredson007]

I've done takeoffs the entire day today, if i spawn on the runway in a same scenario all takeoffs are near perfect... but i even have the same cloud in front of me everytime etc, no variables. When i taxi to the runway, problems are more likely o appear escalating, i can only imagine what sudden crosswind gust might do. (afaik there is no gust factor in dcs weather, only turbulence)?

 

But when the plane rolls dead straight, rises up to ground effect sits there stable for a while and climbs away, it's a rewarding feeling i must say.

[sdflyer]

I think he means that everything is default "pure" mode. No alternations. He must have a looong stick. I find the T16000 can handle linear profile but it's not fun, i like to have some movements to feel better i am actually doing something, while i know these planes are sensitive in real life too. (not as sensitive as t16000 with linear profile though:D)

 

oddly enough if I change my curves to default (if mean linear) when pull my stick completely aft my left aileron goes up as well. In other words my TM Warthog is so sensitive that even 0.1mm left or right on the pitch producing slight roll. With that setup Spit was absolutely un-flyable.

Right now I'm using

dead zone | X | Y| curve

pitch: 11 100 41 27

roll: 20 100 55 25

yaw: 14 100 100 15

[msalama]

TM Warthog is so sensitive that even 0.1mm

 

This is often a big, BIG problem, even with controllers that are reportedly of high quality. Hence curves.

[Vino]

I also did take offs few hours today, and I didn't succeed once. I find taking off impossible for me. Landings are fine..

 

Edit. Don't get me wrong; I love the plane, but these take off problems are driving me crazy..

Edited August 25, 2017 by Vino

[Alfredson007]

I also did take offs few hours today, and I didn't succeed once. I find taking off impossible for me. Landings are fine..

 

Terve,

 

I assume you have a proper rudder pedals? Concentrate on feet work. And spawn on the runway (as you've probably done) ... I find it easiest with 0 elevator trim, zero rudder trim, and using 8lbs of boost. Get the boost up quickly but smoothly. Forget the stick, use the rudders, when the tail rises give it some VERY minor stick inputs, try to fly a while in that attitude, get some speed and gradually take off. Do not get the tail too up, imo you shouldn't see the runway over the nose.

 

Try to look gauges as little as possible, you don't need speed indicator at all, when the plane has lift off its tail on its own wait for few seconds and take off. Concentrate on lateral movements and be active with the feets but avoid over controlling.

[Vino]

Terve terve! :)

 

Yes I have CH rudder pedals. I hardly ever spawn on the runway. I think cold starts are more fun. I think one of my problems is that my tail wheel is not straight or something...

[Alfredson007]

Terve terve! :)

 

Yes I have CH rudder pedals. I hardly ever spawn on the runway. I think cold starts are more fun. I think one of my problems is that my tail wheel is not straight or something...

 

Probably, try to taxi along the runway to get it as straight as possible.

 

I strongly recommend to create a mission where you are on a runway ready to go, practice that first, take off, press shift - r (reset) and take off again... i also find it useful to watch tracks too, it's great to analyze the attitude of the plane once tail is rising.

 

Also, there's always the take off assist to be used, but we are too sturbborn to use it, right? And personally i hate that it also affects the landing roll....

[msalama]

the take off assist to be used

 

Don't use it. Teaches you bad habits that may be difficult to unlearn later.

[Alfredson007]

Don't use it. Teaches you bad habits that may be difficult to unlearn later.

 

I do agree, but also disagree. If the takeoff is too hard due to controller / lack of feel -issues, i think some assists would be OK to compensate that. If the takeoff is too hard due to flight model issues, then the same applies. Is the take off too hard? Dunno. I've flown pretty much this plane and while i do not crash on take offs i wouldn't do one if i could get hurt for real.

 

Yet i kinda like it. It's not hard at all when you do everything right. But slightest errors tend to be very bad and your take offs will be sloppy. Unlike the real take offs in youtube where the plane goes _dead straight_ always. (in ww2 planes general)

[sdflyer]

Ok so I changed my curves to be more linear: pitch, roll, and yaw respectfully

0 100 80 0

0 100 72 0

0 100 100 0

 

I noticed on Yo yo take off video he is using right aileron on take off roll I thought it was done in order to compensate for the right crosswind. However, it seems like there is no other way to maintain directional control without right aileron to offset torque and especially gyroscopic precession (when lift a tale). While it is helps to take off, from what I understand it must be sufficiently enough to compensate with just right rudder!

 

Among other there is common "junior" pilot problem that after Vr (lift off) inadequate right rudder produces left wing drop which most folks instinctively compensate with right aileron. However, all it takes to prevent left wind drop is sufficient right rudder.

 

All sources about Spitfire I have do mention right rudder in the take off, but never mention anything about using right aileron (unless it's right cross wind of course).

 

Now in early Spit modesl I believe empennage was too small, and so rudder authority was lacking. Because of that Spit only take off and land into the wind (dirt field allowed it). Later that problem was cured, and I think mark IX should not have it at all.

 

Also I don't know what is a deal with oversensitive ground looping. I wish Yo yo would show a bit more video on deceleration and full stop !