Stick in center vs right-side stick

[pschelchshorn]

From what I have read, the seat was reclined so that the pilot doesn't stick out of the plane so much. And the canopy is bubble shaped because it would be too big if it were regular size.

 

And of course, I cannot possibly tell wether it is or isn't comfortable inside a cockpit of a Viper since I never sat in any fighter jet cockpit, I was just guessing that it wouldn't feel natural to fly from in position.

 

 

 

from your postings it sounded like you knew it all lol :D Well anyways, ive sat in it and flown the simulator. The Bubble canopy is mainly there to give the pilot a better situational awareness (biggest factor when it comes to survival). He can see more and has like a 360 degree free view. Such a good dogfighter..agh!

 

Flip

[Aeroscout]

Ya, that's what i heard. the seat is reclined and the stick off to the side simply because there was no room.

 

I prefer the center stick my self. If i even get a new computer, (better than this dell demension 2400 crap) then i will make my own "cockpit" of the computer and make a center stick attatchment for my X52.

 

I'm currious as to what this F-16 stick is like. I assume it's nothing like our computer joysticks. exactaly how much does it move, and is it resisted by a spring like out sticks?

[urze]

There is a mod how you can Change the Cougar to a "real" force-sensitive F-16 control.

http://cougar.frugalsworld.com/fssb.php

http://www.simhq.com/_technology2/technology_079a.html

It also contains good explanation of the real one.

[press]

The Bubble canopy is mainly there to give the pilot a better situational awareness (biggest factor when it comes to survival).

 

It only gives good visibility, but when it comes to knowing the position of your plane relative to the ground...this is where it gets a minus. You don`t have a fixed visual cue to see where the nose is poiting. During dogfights you can get in some really awkward positions. Your internal ear tells you something, G presure something, your gut instinct tells you something else and you see something different than what the other three are telling you. Thus having a Su or MiG type of cockpit made out of two pieces you can see more quickly what`s your position. Also during formation flying you can estimate distances between planes better with a two piece canopy.

 

My two cents.

[pschelchshorn]

Your internal ear tells you something, G presure something, your gut instinct tells you something else and you see something different than what the other three are telling you.

 

 

My two cents.

 

Now tell me...where ISNT this the case?! In any case and whatever aircraft you sit these factors occur. Im a private Pilot and i even know what that is like, you get sick if you cant match what you see with what your gutt is telling you lol it sucks hehe! Anyways, I don't agree with your point that it is "better" to have a 2 section cockpit than just one big canopy. Do you have any personal flight experience?! I have quite a few hours and when it comes to canopies, there is nothing better than having a clear view, concerning judging distances as you said with a 2 section pit, thats a big pile of B - S.

 

 

 

Cheers,

 

Flip

[Guest IguanaKing]

Fixed visual cues don't tell you much of anything, especially in a fighter aircraft in which you are regularly experiencing unusual attitudes and spatial disorientation. How does a fighter pilot know where his nose is pointing? From the TVV on the HUD. Trusting his gut feelings and fixed, external, visual cues gets him killed. The F-16 isn't good for formation flying? That's odd, since the USAF Thunderbirds have used that jet for well over 20 years. Visual cues and canopy frames may help in a sim, but they're not of much use in the real world when you actually have the forces of flight acting on your body.

 

The design of the F-16s canopy, and the angle of the seat, were both designed into the aircraft from the beginning. I'd sure like to know the sources of the people saying it ended up that way just to make the pilot fit. :lol: The canopy is a high bubble to give the pilot the maximum unobstructed FOV...even in the downward direction from the sides. When you sit in the F-16, the canopy frame rails are right about at the level of your hips, instead of near your shoulders like on most aircraft. The reclined seat? Yes, it is that way to increase G tolerance of the pilot. Take a ball, drop it vertically, and record the time it took for the ball to hit the ground. Now, roll that same ball down a ramp which is at a 60 degree angle to that point on the ground, and the same length as the height you did the vertical drop from. Record that time, and see which of the two is greater. There you have it folks, a demonstration of the intended concept of the reclined seat...resistance to vertical acceleration. I've been in the F-16 pit a few times, but it wasn't very comfortable for me, mainly because of my height. :D The cockpit is specifically made to be tight around the pilot to reduce the possibility of acceleration-related injuries, but I'm sure someone shorter than myself would be quite comfortable in it.

[pschelchshorn]

Fixed visual cues don't tell you much of anything, especially in a fighter aircraft in which you are regularly experiencing unusual attitudes and spatial disorientation. How does a fighter pilot know where his nose is pointing? From the TVV on the HUD. Trusting his gut feelings and fixed, external, visual cues gets him killed. The F-16 isn't good for formation flying? That's odd, since the USAF Thunderbirds have used that jet for well over 20 years. Visual cues and canopy frames may help in a sim, but they're not of much use in the real world when you actually have the forces of flight acting on your body.

 

The design of the F-16s canopy, and the angle of the seat, were both designed into the aircraft from the beginning. I'd sure like to know the sources of the people saying it ended up that way just to make the pilot fit. :lol: The canopy is a high bubble to give the pilot the maximum unobstructed FOV...even in the downward direction from the sides. When you sit in the F-16, the canopy frame rails are right about at the level of your hips, instead of near your shoulders like on most aircraft. The reclined seat? Yes, it is that way to increase G tolerance of the pilot. Take a ball, drop it vertically, and record the time it took for the ball to hit the ground. Now, roll that same ball down a ramp which is at a 60 degree angle to that point on the ground, and the same length as the height you did the vertical drop from. Record that time, and see which of the two is greater. There you have it folks, a demonstration of the intended concept of the reclined seat...resistance to vertical acceleration. I've been in the F-16 pit a few times, but it wasn't very comfortable for me, mainly because of my height. :D The cockpit is specifically made to be tight around the pilot to reduce the possibility of acceleration-related injuries, but I'm sure someone shorter than myself would be quite comfortable in it.

 

thx for supporting my arguments, though i do think the 16 is very very comfortable :) Maybe we are just sized differently in height.

 

Flip

[Guest IguanaKing]

Maybe...I'm 6'1". :D The seat was actually quite comfortable, and I actually had plenty of head-room under the canopy, it was just the fact that I couldn't get my legs into the holes under the MFDs that made it uncomfortable. Heh...it might have had something to do with my mounting technique. I usually put my feet on the floor in front of the seat, and then sit down while sliding my feet onto the rudder pedals. Maybe if I leaned back while standing, and got my feet on the pedals first, and THEN sat down, I could get into it. :) BTW...the pit on the A-10 is almost as tight as the F-16.

[pschelchshorn]

that so? Well it also depends on how long your upper leg is (above the knee..dunno the english term lol :D ) and so on..thats what they measure at the test facilities for pilot qualifications lol I can fit into a Typhoon for example hehe.

 

Flip

[press]

How does a fighter pilot know where his nose is pointing? From the TVV on the HUD.

Good luck with that during tight dogfights. I usually keep my eye on my enemy. Most of the times I know what`s the position of my aircraft relative to the ground and relative to my enemy, but there are times when I get lost and I need to find asap a fixed visual cue to acertain the position of my aircraft..so I move my eyesite (or using my corner vision) to the window frame (the one that sets apart the windscreen and the canopy). If it`s paralel to the ground then my nose is pointing down, if it`s perpendicular on the ground then my nose is slightly up. I can`t do this sort of thing in the F-16. I have to look at the HUD, as you suggested.

 

The F-16 isn't good for formation flying? That's odd, since the USAF Thunderbirds have used that jet for well over 20 years.

 

How many hundreds flight hours you must have before you can join? Above 750...1000 hours?

 

Visual cues and canopy frames may help in a sim, but they're not of much use in the real world when you actually have the forces of flight acting on your body.

We could just throw away the artificial horizon, variometer, altimeter, compas.

 

Do you have any personal flight experience?!

Yes, sir, I do. I fly military helicopters for 15 years now. And I started on jets.

[Guest IguanaKing]

Good luck with that during tight dogfights. I usually keep my eye on my enemy. Most of the times I know what`s the position of my aircraft relative to the ground and relative to my enemy, but there are times when I get lost and I need to find asap a fixed visual cue to acertain the position of my aircraft..so I move my eyesite (or using my corner vision) to the window frame (the one that sets apart the windscreen and the canopy). If it`s paralel to the ground then my nose is pointing down, if it`s perpendicular on the ground then my nose is slightly up. I can`t do this sort of thing in the F-16. I have to look at the HUD, as you suggested.

 

Yup, and once again, I must emphasize you are in a sim when in those "tight dogfights". Your sense of motion and numerous other factors are going to help you keep on-plane with your enemy IRL...canopy frames have very little to do with that. If you're concentrating on your canopy frame, you are going to turn too late or too early...its all about watching your enemy and knowing how to place your aircraft in an advantageous position.

 

We could just throw away the artificial horizon, variometer, altimeter, compas.

 

WTH is a variometer? And, no I didn't suggest any of that. I was talking about EXTERNAL visual cues. Are you sure you're a pilot? Which helicopter do you fly?

[504Goon]

WTH is a variometer?

 

Vertical Speed Indicator :)

 

And on a sidenote.. don't think i would need canopy frames or any other visual cues to know which way my head is pointing at, no matter how high the G's are..:)

[Guest IguanaKing]

Ah...ok...first time I've heard it called that. Not a particularly critical instrument in normal flight.

 

Your thoughts about visual cues and knowing where your head is pointing are absolutely correct. But, it gets a little more complicated when trying to figure out where the ground is while you're flying. I'm sure you already know that though.

[504Goon]

Yeah, i know. But having a split canopy instead of a clear bubble canopy shouldn't matter in that perspective at all, right?:)

[press]

Yup, and once again, I must emphasize you are in a sim when in those "tight dogfights". Your sense of motion and numerous other factors are going to help you keep on-plane with your enemy IRL...canopy frames have very little to do with that. If you're concentrating on your canopy frame, you are going to turn too late or too early...its all about watching your enemy and knowing how to place your aircraft in an advantageous position.

 

 

 

WTH is a variometer? And, no I didn't suggest any of that. I was talking about EXTERNAL visual cues. Are you sure you're a pilot? Which helicopter do you fly?

 

A variometer, at least we call it like that in this part of the world, is a vertical speed indicator.

 

I must tell you that English is not my native language so missunderstandings can occur.

 

Now let`s get back. Trusting your oponent flight skills is a mistake. Do your own positioning and not relate to the enemy`s position. "If he`s in the air and flying so am I"...this is a no. He can be a dumbass and go right into the ground and you`ll follow him in. It almost happen to me in real world. I followed my leader blindly (I was young and restless :music_whistling:) and almost hit the trees. Fortunatly no one was hurt during that flight...only after the flight when the commander kicked our butts.

 

We don`t do any dogfights in our helicopters. I fly a 13 ton helicopter. But when we fly in formations I keep the helicopter in front of me between certain window frames. I know that if I draw a virtual line between the corner of the panel, the middle of the distance between window frames (the middle of the widht of the window...excuse the English) and tail of the front helicopter I know that I`m at 25 meters behind (that was an example). Without the frames I would have to relate to other methods (laser range finder which we don`t have, or who knows what method I must develop to know the distance and keep me away from the other helicopter`s blades). I do this thing instinctivly it doesn`t require extra energy. So window frames aren`t that bad. I hope you see my point.

 

I`m not saying that F-16`s one piece canopy is a bad thing. It provides the best view in the house, but in my view (at least for me) it takes a little longer to get used to it.

[504Goon]

some F-16 training documents provide pretty good reference points to use when it comes to visual formations. HUD frames, instrument panel corners, etc, but then again, as you've apparently already flown the viper, you must be aware of these things

[press]

some F-16 training documents provide pretty good reference points to use when it comes to visual formations. HUD frames, instrument panel corners, etc, but then again, as you've apparently already flown the viper, you must be aware of these things

 

Never flown the Viper. I`m from the other side of the world if you know what I mean. The closest I got to a F-16 is when the T-birds came to show their shiny jets. What a beautiful show it was. Hat off to those guys.

[504Goon]

woops.. my mistake then:) somehow i understood that you had logged few hours with it already..:)

 

I`m not saying that F-16`s one piece canopy is a bad thing. It provides the best view in the house, but in my view (at least for me) it takes a little longer to get used to it.

[Guest IguanaKing]

A variometer, at least we call it like that in this part of the world, is a vertical speed indicator.

 

I must tell you that English is not my native language so missunderstandings can occur.

 

Now let`s get back. Trusting your oponent flight skills is a mistake. Do your own positioning and not relate to the enemy`s position. "If he`s in the air and flying so am I"...this is a no.

 

OK, now I understand some of our difficulty in understanding each other. :D What I said in that post doesn't have anything to do with trusting your enemy's flying skills, you definitely have to pay attention to everything. But, a canopy frame is not going to tell you where your own jet will end up in relation to his and it won't tell you when to turn to accomplish that. You have to be looking at the target aspect, and how to match it...while at the same time putting yourself in a position so you can sustain that relationship long enough to kill him. Turn too early...you end up just chasing him all day, trying to figure out the proper lead angle. Turn too late, and you only get a snap-shot before exceeding your own aircraft's limitations. He reverses, drops onto your 6, and you don't go home that day.

[Guest IguanaKing]

Yeah, i know. But having a split canopy instead of a clear bubble canopy shouldn't matter in that perspective at all, right?:)

 

Nope, not at all. The high bubble canopy just goes back to the old addage of aerial combat..."He who sees first, lives longest.". :)

[britgliderpilot]

A variometer, at least we call it like that in this part of the world, is a vertical speed indicator.

 

I must tell you that English is not my native language so missunderstandings can occur.

 

Interestly, we use the word variometer in the British gliding world - think the power guys still use the term VSI.

 

 

Odd. Might be something to do with the fact that all our aircraft are German, of course :P

[nscode]

We call it variometer too :)

[Kula66]

Nope, not at all. The high bubble canopy just goes back to the old addage of aerial combat..."He who sees first, lives longest.". :)

 

Any idea why they dropped the single canopy on the F-35 ... that frame must reduce vis and they've obviously master the technology on the 16 and 22.

 

Intersting bit in that YF-23 vid about the canopy ... did you see it flex when hit by a chicken!!

[Guest IguanaKing]

I'm just speculating here, but it might have been a measure taken to shave a square milimeter or two off its RCS. It might have been something they had to do in order to reach the desired RCS. Visibility won't be much of a problem for the F-22 and F-35 though, since the HMD will pretty much give the pilot a full, spherical view of his surroundings, regardless of opaque aircraft parts.

 

I haven't watched the YF-23 vids yet, but I will. Does anybody else see shades of the old B-57 or Gloucester Meteor in the YF-23s shape?

[press]

OK, now I understand some of our difficulty in understanding each other. :D What I said in that post doesn't have anything to do with trusting your enemy's flying skills, you definitely have to pay attention to everything. But, a canopy frame is not going to tell you where your own jet will end up in relation to his and it won't tell you when to turn to accomplish that. You have to be looking at the target aspect, and how to match it...while at the same time putting yourself in a position so you can sustain that relationship long enough to kill him. Turn too early...you end up just chasing him all day, trying to figure out the proper lead angle. Turn too late, and you only get a snap-shot before exceeding your own aircraft's limitations. He reverses, drops onto your 6, and you don't go home that day.

 

 

Yes, you are very correct here.

 

Any idea why they dropped the single canopy on the F-35 ... that frame must reduce vis and they've obviously master the technology on the 16 and 22.

 

Might be that a single canopy is a tad expensive than a two piece. Think of the F-22 incident where the electric engine that closes and opens the window burned out. They had to wreck a 180,000 dollar canopy to get the pilot out. If it had a two piece they only had to cut through the canopy, leaving the wind screen untouched. Remember that not all countries that`ll buy the F-35 have the amounts money US has.