D-Scythe Posted February 22, 2007 Posted February 22, 2007 so the pilots throw out some Zippos at airshows? otherwise i couldn't explain seeing those flare-like-thingies they dropped... AFAIK, only the WAH-64D British Apaches are fully equipped with flares. The US Army AH-64Ds are getting flares (some really good kinds too, supposedly) as part of its ATIRCM package, which includes the ALE-47 chaff/flare dispenser.
JACN Posted February 22, 2007 Author Posted February 22, 2007 Well, flares or not, internet knowledge aside, I've seen an AH-64D do interesting things in the air, and popping lots of flares. It shoots off two to the right and left. No flares at all http://www.airliners.net/open.file/1012546/L/ http://www.airliners.net/open.file/0902014/L/ http://www.airliners.net/open.file/0917159/L/ http://www.airliners.net/open.file/0946812/L/ Ok, Netherlands - Air Force. It could be a modern AH-64D version fitted with it. As D-Scythe pointed WAH-64D do have flares in its ATIRCM package...but as in the Netherlands case it can be more a foreign client Apache customization than a real US Army arsenal standar. All in all I think they should seriously consider to add them to all their helo (not only Apache) fleet.
D-Scythe Posted February 22, 2007 Posted February 22, 2007 Ok, Netherlands - Air Force. It could be a modern AH-64D version fitted with it. As D-Scythe pointed WAH-64D do have flares in its ATIRCM package...but as in the Netherlands case it can be more a foreign client Apache customization than a real US Army arsenal standar. All in all I think they should seriously consider to add them to all their helo (not only Apache) fleet. Netherlands - can't believe I forgot. But yeah, you're absolutely right - only (some? or all?) foreign Longbows are fully equipped with flares. It seems that Army Longbows are in the process of being retrofitted with the complete ATIRCM package right now - it's possible some of them may have flares already.
JACN Posted February 22, 2007 Author Posted February 22, 2007 Netherlands - can't believe I forgot. But yeah, you're absolutely right - only (some? or all?) foreign Longbows are fully equipped with flares. It seems that Army Longbows are in the process of being retrofitted with the complete ATIRCM package right now - it's possible some of them may have flares already. Thanks, mate. I cannot believe flares were not in the original design features :mad: . Itґs hard to say now...but I think it could have saved many lives :(
STRIKER Posted February 22, 2007 Posted February 22, 2007 Chaff, flares....you name it. The Iraqi's dont even bother shooting at my bird anymore unless its AK'S or RPG's. [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]
Maximus_G Posted February 23, 2007 Posted February 23, 2007 http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/2006/07/bae-wins-14b-order-for-aircraft-irdefense-systems/index.php I doubt that it's been fitted yet to the whole fleet. According to US Army officials, it has. http://www.army.mil/-news/2007/02/12/1803-investigators-studying-latest-army-helo-cases-to-prevent-future-incidents/ All the Army's forward-deployed fixed- and rotary-wing aircraft are equipped with the Common Missile Warning System. In addition, the Army has improved the ballistic protection of its helicopters "so that if the aircraft does take some small-arms fire, it can still make it home," Quackenbush said. Still the birds are being shot down.
JACN Posted February 23, 2007 Author Posted February 23, 2007 According to US Army officials, it has. http://www.army.mil/-news/2007/02/12/1803-investigators-studying-latest-army-helo-cases-to-prevent-future-incidents/ All the Army's forward-deployed fixed- and rotary-wing aircraft are equipped with the Common Missile Warning System. In addition, the Army has improved the ballistic protection of its helicopters "so that if the aircraft does take some small-arms fire, it can still make it home," Quackenbush said. Still the birds are being shot down. That text only mentions the AN/AAR-57 Common Missile Warning System (CMWS is a software reprogrammable system intended to provide automatic passive missile detection, threat declaration, positive warning of a post launch missile which is homing on the host platform, countermeasures effectiveness assessment, false alarm suppression, and cues to other onboard systems such as expendable countermeasures dispensers.) That system, itshelf, does not carry flares. It is only a passive alarm system which, after having detected a launch, actives inboard countermeasures: IR jammer and/or Flares (if carried). This is the list of aircrafts fitted with AN/ALQ-144 jammer: EH-1H, EH-1X, EH-60A, MH-60K, UH-60A/L, AH-1F, AH-64A/D, OH-58D, OV-1D, and RV-1D Neither Chinook nor MH-53 are included. They may use other systems, including flares...which indeed explains the above "flares release" pics. I tend to think that US Army was over-confident in the AN/ALQ-144 IR Jamming technology opposite to traditional flares dispensers. Theyґve realized it was an error to trust only in one unique system and now are developing (and maybe start introducing in a few fleet aircrafts) a four in one solution: "laser-based infrared jammer + programmable countermeasure dispenser + advanced flares + missile warning system" All in all, as I started this topic, in my opinion there was a great underestimation of IR menaces in the design of many of their combat helicopters (Apache first) Just as a personal virtual experience, when flying Apache with Janeґs Longbow2 I always instinctively was looking for a non-existing "flares deploy" button after hearing that frightening BEEEEEEP which anounced (very) bad news and an incoming missile (confirmed in the automatically poped ASE MDF page)... Few times the IR jammer acomplished succesfully its work. Most times only hidding behind a mount save me from a sure death. How much I missed those flares...
ED Team Groove Posted February 23, 2007 ED Team Posted February 23, 2007 Check this pic for some sensors on UK Apaches: Taken from a post in the simhq forums. Our Forum Rules: http://forums.eagle.ru/rules.php#en
leafer Posted February 23, 2007 Posted February 23, 2007 Man...I hated watching those three videos, and I'm antiwar. I'm guessing none of them survived? Now the question is, why didn't they have escort? ED have been taking my money since 1995. :P
JACN Posted February 23, 2007 Author Posted February 23, 2007 Man...I hated watching those three videos, and I'm antiwar. I'm guessing none of them survived? Now the question is, why didn't they have escort? Sadly, I think one of the big disadvantages of fighting an invisible foe...as happens in that urban scenery...is that the enemy can take all time needed to study his target and wait hidden for the best moment to attack. I´m quite sure that many of these attacks happened in routine transfer or patrol flights and over supposed safe (or not so "heat") areas in which sometimes the target´s attention can be more relaxed. That could explain the "lone-wolf" flights shown in the videos.
ED Team Groove Posted February 23, 2007 ED Team Posted February 23, 2007 Correct me but if you fly with 2 or more helos and the enemy shoots his SA-16 ( or other ) on the last chopper, where is the difference ? Our Forum Rules: http://forums.eagle.ru/rules.php#en
Storm.i Posted February 23, 2007 Posted February 23, 2007 Well, if the guy is quick he can destroy em both? Guess the point is made indeed, more choppers doesn't mean more protection against this kind of attacks. And then another question: What do those sensors do? Do they give a warning to the pilot(s) (I think pretty useless because then the pilot is too late anyway?) or do they have flares deployed by themeselves? Or maybe something else?
JACN Posted February 23, 2007 Author Posted February 23, 2007 Correct me but if you fly with 2 or more helos and the enemy shoots his SA-16 ( or other ) on the last chopper, where is the difference ? 8,12,16...eyes see (far) more than only 4 and also have greater field of view. Watching those videos I donґt believe those crews were consious of an incoming missile until impact:( . Maybe a friendly warning voice with the ground flash and trail could have given them at least the chance of performing an evasive manoeuver...and in the worst case make sure that igla carrier (and friends) wonґt see one more sunset...
STRIKER Posted February 24, 2007 Posted February 24, 2007 And then another question: What do those sensors do? Do they give a warning to the pilot(s) (I think pretty useless because then the pilot is too late anyway?) or do they have flares deployed by themeselves? Or maybe something else? Depends on the helo. The one I fly you can count on it. There are so many darn antenna's sticking out of our helo its ridiculous...but hey, it keeps me alive. Here is the official AF description. "Mission The Pave Low's mission is low-level, long-range, undetected penetration into denied areas, day or night, in adverse weather, for infiltration, exfiltration and resupply of special operations forces." Our job is basically to go in when all others cant. Usually when a team knows we are coming to pick them up they can count on us there. [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]
Maximus_G Posted February 24, 2007 Posted February 24, 2007 That text only mentions the AN/AAR-57 Common Missile Warning System ...That system, itshelf, does not carry flares. Well, nobody said here that CMWS has a flare dispenser. I tend to think that US Army was over-confident in the AN/ALQ-144 IR Jamming technology opposite to traditional flares dispensers. Looks like it.
Maximus_G Posted February 24, 2007 Posted February 24, 2007 Some news related: US Army mulling Rafael’s Trophy system for helicopters http://www.globes.co.il/serveen/globes/DocView.asp?did=1000185347&fid=1725
Maximus_G Posted February 28, 2007 Posted February 28, 2007 Using the community mind power, we've found the flare dispensers on US Army Apaches: http://forum.sukhoi.ru/attachment.php?attachmentid=69925&d=1172645137 http://forum.sukhoi.ru/attachment.php?attachmentid=69893&d=1172598177 The same thing is on the Blackhawks. But it's located only at port side of Apache. So the statement about its absence is half true?..
JACN Posted February 28, 2007 Author Posted February 28, 2007 So the statement about its absence is half true?.. Is that really a standar in (all) the US Army Apache fleet?. What is the name of that flares dispenser?. Since when is it used?...It may be part of the IR countermeasures update program
Piffer Posted March 6, 2007 Posted March 6, 2007 Insurgents subject US helicopters to more deadly attacks: http://vootatico.com/?p=540 http://vootatico.com
D-Scythe Posted March 6, 2007 Posted March 6, 2007 But it's located only at port side of Apache. So the statement about its absence is half true?.. Um, flares don't care whether they are fired from the left, right, above or below. The F-15 only has flare dispensors on its bottom fuselage and the Su-27 only from the top - does that make them have "half" an ability to launch flares?
tflash Posted March 6, 2007 Posted March 6, 2007 It would surprise me if they flew without flares. But flares are no 100% safeguard. You must take into account the sheer endless number of attacks, and the fact that the enemy can be everywhere. These guys get shot at every minute of the day, no surprise now and then a chopper gets hit. The bottom line is the hover capability which is the main advantage of a chopper in urban CAS is also its greatest vulnerability. [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]
Maximus_G Posted March 7, 2007 Posted March 7, 2007 Um, flares don't care whether they are fired from the left, right, above or below. The F-15 only has flare dispensors on its bottom fuselage and the Su-27 only from the top - does that make them have "half" an ability to launch flares? That was a joke, man...
D-Scythe Posted March 7, 2007 Posted March 7, 2007 That was a joke, man... Oh...hmm, my bad then. Smiley next time maybe?
JACN Posted March 7, 2007 Author Posted March 7, 2007 Using the community mind power, we've found the flare dispensers on US Army Apaches: http://forum.sukhoi.ru/attachment.php?attachmentid=69925&d=1172645137 http://forum.sukhoi.ru/attachment.php?attachmentid=69893&d=1172598177 The same thing is on the Blackhawks. But it's located only at port side of Apache. So the statement about its absence is half true?.. BTW...this is the M-130 dispenser. Altough it can be loaded either with flares or chaffs...in the case of Apache it does load chaffs only: "The Apache can be optionally fitted with M130 chaff dispensers on each side of the rear tailboom, with each containing 30 chaff cartridges." Again, flares loaded in the Apache is only a just a myth... And again (and again and...), tough we all agree flares are not a 100% safeguard, I think a IR jammer + flares mix would highly increase the actual survivability (x2?). Indeed this mix, in adition with a more advanced CMWS, has been quickly considered by the US Army for their combat choppers since the Iraq experience...
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