Magic II seeker head-on vs flares?

[D4n]

So it happened TWICE now already, I fox on a Harrier head on at just 5 miles or so, he BARELY maneuvers and pops shit-load of flares, the Magic II seeker loosing track of the Harrier's engines exhausts... what type of seeker does the Magic II use? A better one than the Magic 1 I thought?

[Dagger71]

Magic 2 uses the AD3633 seeker. Although it does have head on capability, it will be much more easily fooled by flares from this aspect.

 

Besides, all IR missiles can be fooled by flares, when they are deployed at the right time and interval.

 

Edit.. Are you saying 5nm or 5 miles out (which would be over just 4 nm out) ? When using Magic 2, you should almost always fire at rmin to get a better chance of kill. Anything more than that and it will easily chase flares. 5 miles out is way too far to fire M2K (and many other) Fox 2 missiles frontal aspect.

Edited February 16, 2018 by Dagger71

[D4n]

Maybe was 2 miles, don't remember. I would assume the AD3633 seeker has a computer chip too that processes the picture information and makes calculation of the heat sources, which heat source is engine, which is flare...?

[Oceandar]

The Harrier has very low heat signature in dcs, almost identical to A-10. Don't know if its accurate as real Harrier.

So its acceptable that your Magic fooled by bunch of flares. Su-27 EOS has a hard time tracking the Harrier even in 10 km away.

[Frederf]

I don't think Magic II is an imaging IR missile seeker. That's a very modern technology. Usually seekers of this era do signal analysis on a modulated input signal.

 

IRCCM for head on flare by LOS rate would be very difficult or impossible because the flare a very similar tracking rate to the original airplane. Intensity of IR is least for head on aspect where the only source is frictional heating of air against leading edge surfaces. The IR flare intensity is proportionally higher than compared with hot engine emissions.

 

Probably Magic I seeker is uncooled PbS type like AIM-9P which can only differentiate hot engine emission from the environment. Magic II is probably cooled (explaining the limited ready time and preparation delay) which is sensitive to longer (cooler) IR wavelengths from frictional airframe heating allowing all aspect detection similar to AIM-9L/M.

 

I think DCS does not have super sophisticated IRCM-IRCCM factors. It is probably a probability dice roll for every flare event when locked on. I don't even think it is possible to break seeker lock when missile is still on the rail.

[D4n]

imaging IR, exactly the term I meant. I thought Magic 2 would have that. What do you mean by tracking rate?

[Frederf]

Magic II 1986? Probably not. The AIM-9 didn't have IIR until AIM-9X 2003.

 

I mean LOS rate. From the point of view of the missile the movement of the flare is small in terms of degrees per second. This is a method to discriminate flares from target. Flare slows down while target remains fast. This is significantly different look direction when looking at the side of the target.

 

But for head on engagement the flare being slower than target is simply farther away in distance but no fast change of angle.

[jojo]

Magic II 1986? Probably not. The AIM-9 didn't have IIR until AIM-9X 2003.

 

I mean LOS rate. From the point of view of the missile the movement of the flare is small in terms of degrees per second. This is a method to discriminate flares from target. Flare slows down while target remains fast. This is significantly different look direction when looking at the side of the target.

 

But for head on engagement the flare being slower than target is simply farther away in distance but no fast change of angle.

 

Indeed no IIR. We have that on Mica IR (IOC in 2000).

 

The last tile I checked, in DCS Magic 2 had the same seeker parameters than AIM-9M...

[jojo]

Magic II is probably cooled (explaining the limited ready time and preparation delay) which is sensitive to longer (cooler) IR wavelengths from frictional airframe heating allowing all aspect detection similar to AIM-9L/M.

 

I think DCS does not have super sophisticated IRCM-IRCCM factors. It is probably a probability dice roll for every flare event when locked on. I don't even think it is possible to break seeker lock when missile is still on the rail.

 

You're right again for both:

- all aspect cooled IR seeker

- probability dice roll missile CCMM (true for chaff too)

Edited February 28, 2018 by jojo

[GGTharos]

I don't think Magic II is an imaging IR missile seeker. That's a very modern technology. Usually seekers of this era do signal analysis on a modulated input signal.

 

Quite right.

 

IRCCM for head on flare by LOS rate would be very difficult or impossible because the flare a very similar tracking rate to the original airplane. Intensity of IR is least for head on aspect where the only source is frictional heating of air against leading edge surfaces. The IR flare intensity is proportionally higher than compared with hot engine emissions.

 

I would actually argue that once the seeker is locked onto the different wavelength of the airframe IR, flares might have a harder time decoying it - this is where pre-emptive flares and IRCCM comes into play - however ...

 

I think DCS does not have super sophisticated IRCM-IRCCM factors. It is probably a probability dice roll for every flare event when locked on. I don't even think it is possible to break seeker lock when missile is still on the rail.

 

Different wavelengths are not modeled, and neither is any sort of 'seeker lock' while on the rail. It's just a representation 'on your aircraft', but the thing on your rail is just a static missiles :D It is de-spawned and a 'live' missile is spawned when you pull the trigger.

 

Regardless of that, seeker mechanics in terms of different wavelengths, trouble locking onto an airframe in the presence of larger heat sources (flares) is not modeled, nor is a bunch of other stuff ... and thus the 'die roll' remains a fair-ish implementation.

 

Having said that, the harrier's flare spam could potentially overwhelm any non IIR seeker.

[D4n]

"die roll" ? That is a feature, not a still-not-fixed bug?

[GGTharos]

It's just how it works. There's no bug here, working as intended.

[TAW_Blaze]

Different wavelengths are not modeled, and neither is any sort of 'seeker lock' while on the rail. It's just a representation 'on your aircraft', but the thing on your rail is just a static missiles :D It is de-spawned and a 'live' missile is spawned when you pull the trigger.

 

Lmao.. :megalol:

[jojo]

"die roll" ? That is a feature, not a still-not-fixed bug?

 

Razbam didn't code the missiles seekers.

Super 530D and Magic 2 use DCS World Fox 1 and Fox 2 seeker code.

 

Magic 2 seeker behaves the same as AIM-9M in DCS.