vs. SARH

[504Goon]

Second that, GG. It really bothers me that all a pilot needs to do to evade a SARH is to fly straight and dump chaff at regular intervals. That's really it. Call that realistic? AFAIK chaff is far from "all aspect" chaff that we currently have in LO. It should work only in the beam. If we could have that one thing fixed, i'm pretty sure that the missiles would act more real.

[porky]

Won't be by me. At least not today. :)

 

EDIT: Thinking about what I've seen so far based on ridiculously little data, I suspect that moving the crossing target out to 20km wouldn't effect missile arrival time all that much. The only difference will be that neither missile will hit the target because both are out of E. It'll be interesting to check.

 

Rich

 

And another quick and dirty test :D

 

C-130 at 90°, missile launched with target on nose exactly as Ironhand had it. 20km range on launch with the target directly ahead.

 

AIM-120: 31.87 seconds

 

R-77: 22.75 seconds

 

No idea how you got the speeds of the missile but these are the flight times. Both missiles had enough E to hit the target.

 

All times are taken from an average of 5 seperate times in v1.12a.

 

The 120s time increased loads, but 77 generally stayed the same. If anyone can tell me how I can test even further...I will, I've got time to burn tonight :thumbup:

[GGTharos]

if you go to externals, you can record speed. It might be useful to record per-second speed from a track, as well as g/heading.

 

What we might find is that one missile is making a draggier turn than the other.

[OldFrankHog]

Sorry about my comment earlier Cali I wasnt trying to be mean or make fun of you I just found it funny that we never have ED people come on and give stats like that except when you do some serious research they show up and shoot it down :P (ie: ECM blinking thread wich could have used ED's imput like 10 times more)

 

By the way I think its cool you made all those test I was wondering why my amraam's took forever to hit target making the fight WVR instead of BVR unless you drag or turn around. I mean technically the missile is supposed to go like what, 10x faster then my jet ? Maybe down to 3x or 4x if Im burner for a whyle when I launch (wich isnt supposed to happen for realisms sake).

[GGTharos]

No, technically the missile is supposed to go 2 times faster than your jet. Maybe 2.5.

 

In RL a 16-20nm (real range hard to determine, not mentioned - I timed it) engagement ended up with the targets being hit at 8nm distance from the launcher.

[OldFrankHog]

I thought Amraam top speed was mach 4 ? me going 350 knots...kinda like more then 2.5 times faster me thinks.

[GGTharos]

Yes, an AMRAAM's top speed is Mach 4 ... when you launch it while doing mach 1+ at 36000'.

If you launch it at low altitude with a 350KT IAS, it'll top out at 3.something at best.

Realistically you'd likely be popping missiles off BVR at 500KIAS.

 

Your own aircraft imparting velocity to the missile though is N/A LOMAC.

[porky]

Okay this is interesting (for me anyway :)). I must have messed up on the other test (I'm still clumsy in the editor), but this time I set up a pretty accurate test (I think hehe).

 

Target: C-130

Angle: 90° coming in from the right

Launch range: 20km

Target directly in the centre of the HUD.

Alt: 2000

Speed: 600

 

AIM-120

 

Flight time: 42.85 secs

Burn time: 7.62 secs

Speed upon launch: 3018

Speed upon detonation: 796

 

Speed lost: 63.071/sec

 

R-77

 

Flight time: 40.87 secs

Burn time: 9.06 secs

Speed upon launch: 3300

Speed upon detonation: 774

 

Speed lost: 79.409/sec

 

 

Both missiles hit the ground instead of the target. Don't ask why the flight times are so different to my other test, I messed up completely on the other (or maybe this?) one :doh:

[GGTharos]

What altitude did you try? :) Try 5000m.

 

Be careful when setting up the waypoints, check all of them for speed and altitude! :)

[Ironhand]

...Alt: 800...

Forgot to note that I used 2000 m altitude for myself and target.

 

Rich

[porky]

Waypoints are fine, I made sure about that :)

 

I'll check the alt because those results do seem to differ a lot with Ironhand's 15km test.

 

Edit: Sorry for confusion, I got completely mixed up then, alt is actually 2000m. I will try 5000m as soon as I can. One more thing, should I test automatically, ie setting up two AI aircraft, giving them waypoints each and telling one to launch at a certain time, or manually (like I am doing now), setting up one AI and one player aircraft, giving them waypoints each and then launching manually (flying on autopilot).

[Ironhand]

My method is to set up my flight with the airspeed and altitude I want. And also the AI flight. I enter the mission and immediately press the H and J keys to hold altitude and speed constant. Then acquire the target on radar and launch at the predetermined distance. I find it much easier to record the flight to a track file. I then run to track as many times as necessary to take measurements, etc.

 

Rich

[Pilotasso]

BTW is BS still going to have AIM-120B and C? TEsters quit mentioning them for quite a while now.

[GGTharos]

Yep. AIM-120B is the 'now' AMRAAM, and the C is the 'new' AMRAAM with updated seeker properties.

[Ironhand]

...I'll check the alt because those results do seem to differ a lot with Ironhand's 15km test...

The flight times sound about right. Both missiles have slowed to a comparative crawl by the time they're 15 km downrange. It would take almost as long again for them to travel the remaining 5 km.

 

Rich

[fulcrum251]

I believe it's no useful for R77's speed than AIM120's. all air combats are different:altitude/speed/angle/range.....

[Frostie]

The R77 is faster than the AMRAAM in Falcon too maybe we should get them to change it aswell.:D

[Ardillita]

So you're saying I should not bother with ETs in these engagements? Toss an EM/R first instead of the ET? Wouldn't that bring about loads of missile evasions as the second Eagle will have plenty of time to fire off his load while you concentrate on guiding the EM/R at the first Eagle?

 

No, the et is extremely usefull in these engaments. Look at the track. The launch of the 27er is done only for the purpose to put the first enemy into a defensive situation. After that I get close fast and maneouver in order to look for a 27et sahoot, so later I can engage the second enemy. If youm are interested I can make the track with subtitles.

[D-Scythe]

The R77 is faster than the AMRAAM in Falcon too maybe we should get them to change it aswell.:D

 

It's not an issue of top speed - the AIM-120 should make better use of its energy/keep it better because it has a much smarter auto-pilot that optimizes its trajectory.

 

The R-77 does not. Actually, it doesn't even loft. Add in the fact that it generates more drag, then you see how baseless the notion is that the R-77 out-ranges the AIM-120B/C.

[GGTharos]

The R-77 lofts by now, so let's not go there. It's not like the R-77 has received no upgrades since 94.

 

The R-77 will generate less drag from its control surfaces at high mach than the AMRAAM, but once it drops below mach 2 or so it'll be like deploying an airbrake, which is not simulated in LO right now.

 

While the R-77 is draggier, the longer burn time and initial velocity basically make the 'draggier' part somewhat moot inside a particular range.

[D-Scythe]

The R-77 lofts by now, so let's not go there. It's not like the R-77 has received no upgrades since 94.

 

Nope, I couldn't find a single source that says the R-77 can loft, nor that it received any substantial upgrade since it's IOC. Contrast that with AMRAAM.

[GGTharos]

That YOU couldn't find it doesn't mean much, you know. ;)

For the longest time, it was not possible to find a source indicating that the Patriot can shoot down ARMs. Can anyone find it now in fact, I wonder? ;)

[GGTharos]

Incidentally, because I know someone's going to ask ...

 

 

Source of R-77/Izd-170 loft profile (high angle of deflection trajectory) is Tejnika i Voruzhenie Journal 02/06 journal, special edition on soviet/russian air to air radar missiles.

[192nd_Erdem]

Lies! It's from Homodiye Ingavaz Natranzi Izdeliye(Dash I-Ba for clearance 238-b-76) pages 31-32.

[GGTharos]

I'm referring to a real journal that you could purchase if you wanted. What are YOU talking about?