GGTharos Posted April 12, 2018 Share Posted April 12, 2018 No it doesn't. The range is too short, a lot of the symbology is missing, TWS doesn't work correctly - there are missing sub-modes, HoJ always ends up in STT (it should work fine in TWS) etc etc. It's missing major features from the original radar, never mind the 90's version. What we have in DCS doesn't represent any version of the APG-63, it just kinda looks like one. Once the hornet comes out you might understand. That radar's based on the APG-63 after all ;) And like jojo said, that's just the radar itself. based on whats written in the manual late 90s- early 2000s fits the description. [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC] Reminder: SAM = Speed Bump :D I used to play flight sims like you, but then I took a slammer to the knee - Yoda Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hummingbird Posted April 14, 2018 Share Posted April 14, 2018 (edited) NATO did shot a lot of HARM :smilewink: http://www.ausairpower.net/APA-2009-04.html#mozTocId368006 They were not wasted though as those HARMs kept the aircraft safe by either forcing the serbian SAM operators to shut off & move their radar, leaving the shots unguided as noted in the same link, or by taking out the SAM sites that didn't shut off their radar and move away in time. Thus in the end HARM won the day by allowing coalition aircraft to fly in relative safety, whilst the free mobility available to serbian mobile SAM systems saved the lives of many SAM operators. Had coalition ground forces been deployed however the loss records would've looked bleak even for the mobile SA-6's - which was the basic lesson learned from that conflict, i.e. you need something to force the rabbit out of its hole before you can effectively bag it. Edited April 14, 2018 by Hummingbird Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jojo Posted April 14, 2018 Share Posted April 14, 2018 (edited) They were not wasted though as those HARMs kept the aircraft safe by either forcing the serbian SAM operators to shut off & move their radar, leaving the shots unguided as noted in the same link, or by taking out the SAM sites that didn't shut off their radar and move away in time. Thus in the end HARM won the day by allowing coalition aircraft to fly in relative safety, whilst the free mobility available to serbian mobile SAM systems saved the lives of many SAM operators. Had coalition ground forces been deployed however the loss records would've looked bleak even for the mobile SA-6's - which was the basic lesson learned from that conflict, i.e. you need something to force the rabbit out of its hole before you can effectively bag it. Sure, but that's an expensive way of doing business. The latest developments in AARGM are aimed toward killing SAM even radar off, and DEAD rather than SEAD :thumbup: Edited April 14, 2018 by jojo Mirage fanatic ! I7-7700K/ MSI RTX3080/ RAM 64 Go/ SSD / TM Hornet stick-Virpil WarBRD + Virpil CM3 Throttle + MFG Crosswind + Reverb G2. Flickr gallery: https://www.flickr.com/gp/71068385@N02/728Hbi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hummingbird Posted April 14, 2018 Share Posted April 14, 2018 Sure, but that's an expensive way of doing business. The latest developments in AARGM are aimed toward killing SAM even radar off, and DEAD rather than SEAD :thumbup: A lot less expensive than an equal amount of downed aircraft though ;) But yeah the new AARGM development definitely aims to improve things. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fri13 Posted April 14, 2018 Share Posted April 14, 2018 This view may not be shared by all DCS World players, but I sometimes find that the FC3 jets are more difficult to use in combat because you have to remember so many keybinds for your hotas and keyboard, with the Full Fidelity jets all you have to remember is the Hotas commands and then your mouse does the rest... I find learning the cockpit to be easier to remember than the FC3 keybinds even if the models themselves are simplified I bind most things to HOTAS so I don't need to use at all the mouse or keyboard for anything. It is easy with a two multipliers. But that was/is with TrackIR, in VR it is the other way by using Oculus Touch Controllers to operate as you just point move hand in cockpit and point and click more like you would be there. The downside just currently is that ED has not implemented the right mouse click, so most modules are useless and you need to bind mouse right click to HOTAS to compensate for that. What it really does is to make you change your flight behavior as you can't just sit and operate the aircraft at maximum efficiency by not taking hands off from HOTAS, instead you need to move hands around and you will learn quickly that right side of cockpit operations are not at all as efficient as left side or center part as your right hand will stay on stick for most of the time. That is something that mouse doesn't teach you at all as you can so easily as well click all over the places. i7-8700k, 32GB 2666Mhz DDR4, 2x 2080S SLI 8GB, Oculus Rift S. i7-8700k, 16GB 2666Mhz DDR4, 1080Ti 11GB, 27" 4K, 65" HDR 4K. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarkFire Posted April 15, 2018 Share Posted April 15, 2018 Prediction: the most capable pilots will win. I've seen Su-25 pilots shoot down F-15C pilots who's SA was nonexistent, and I've seen plenty of A-10's shoot down MiG-29 and Su-27 pilots who had no idea what was going on around them. To a very large extent hardware is less important than the skill of the pilots. System Spec: Cooler Master Cosmos C700P Black Edition case. | AMD 5950X CPU | MSI RTX-3090 GPU | 32GB HyperX Predator PC4000 RAM | | TM Warthog stick & throttle | TrackIR 5 | Samsung 980 Pro NVMe 4 SSD 1TB (boot) | Samsung 870 QVO SSD 4TB (games) | Windows 10 Pro 64-bit. Personal wish list: DCS: Su-27SM & DCS: Avro Vulcan. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bushmanni Posted April 15, 2018 Share Posted April 15, 2018 You can shoot down noobs while flying a massively inferior jet but when both pilots have decent understanding of their planes, it becomes very hard for even the best pilots to shoot down an 4th gen fighter while flying something like a frog or hog. Hardware differences become insignificant only when the other side is clueless. DCS Finland: Suomalainen DCS yhteisö -- Finnish DCS community -------------------------------------------------- SF Squadron Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deano87 Posted April 15, 2018 Share Posted April 15, 2018 Prediction: the most capable pilots will win. I've seen Su-25 pilots shoot down F-15C pilots who's SA was nonexistent, and I've seen plenty of A-10's shoot down MiG-29 and Su-27 pilots who had no idea what was going on around them. To a very large extent hardware is less important than the skill of the pilots. This Proud owner of: PointCTRL VR : Finger Trackers for VR -- Real Simulator : FSSB R3L Force Sensing Stick. -- Deltasim : Force Sensor WH Slew Upgrade -- Mach3Ti Ring : Real Flown Mach 3 SR-71 Titanium, made into an amazing ring. My Fathers Aviation Memoirs: 50 Years of Flying Fun - From Hunter to Spitfire and back again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kev2go Posted April 16, 2018 Share Posted April 16, 2018 (edited) For instance no Raid Assesment Mode which was available in the 1979 manual :music_whistling: No tactical situation display on the MPCD, not datalink (even simplified like on Su 27). No faithful reproduction of HOTAS commands... If you have an open source link about late 90' - early 2000' F-15C weapon system please share :smilewink: By manual i mean the FC3 manual. Please i never Referenced an actual manual . It should of been obvious i was referring to the DCS FC3 F15Cmanual. please don't try to say i was claiming otherwise. Also. I never said it functions fully like one, but only seem that way because of FC3 level simplifications so you just answered your own question. FC3 Manual In question says the F15C in question is supposed to be AN/APG63 V1. Now just because it doesnt quite work one is again another matter entirely. It doesn't mean its meant to be different radar. It means at the time they had less information and did what they could. and that merely the FC3 F15C avionics is in need of updates. Then again It is ED has stated it its thier goal at somepoint to make all FC3 AC into full fidelity modules. Also TAD display would be very similar in function and appearance to the TAD page on the A10C, except with Link 16. I don't see the point about arguing if the FC3 F-15C weapon system is simplified or not => it is. But i never was arguing of its simplified or not..... IT is i never said otherwise. I was simply saying irregardless of how simpliefied you think it is, at least by Appearance is resembling a late 90s bird. All FC3 aircraft have simplified avionics no matter what way you look at it. Edited April 16, 2018 by Kev2go Build: Windows 10 64 bit Pro Case/Tower: Corsair Graphite 760tm ,Asus Strix Z790 Motherboard, Intel Core i7 12700k ,Corsair Vengeance LPX DDR4 64gb ram (3600 mhz) , (Asus strix oc edition) Nvidia RTX 3080 12gb , Evga g2 850 watt psu, Hardrives ; Samsung 970 EVo, , Samsung evo 860 pro 1 TB SSD, Samsung evo 850 pro 1TB SSD, WD 1TB HDD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kev2go Posted April 16, 2018 Share Posted April 16, 2018 Prediction: the most capable pilots will win. I've seen Su-25 pilots shoot down F-15C pilots who's SA was nonexistent, and I've seen plenty of A-10's shoot down MiG-29 and Su-27 pilots who had no idea what was going on around them. To a very large extent hardware is less important than the skill of the pilots. This NOPE You can shoot down noobs while flying a massively inferior jet but when both pilots have decent understanding of their planes, it becomes very hard for even the best pilots to shoot down an 4th gen fighter while flying something like a frog or hog. Hardware differences become insignificant only when the other side is clueless. THIS Build: Windows 10 64 bit Pro Case/Tower: Corsair Graphite 760tm ,Asus Strix Z790 Motherboard, Intel Core i7 12700k ,Corsair Vengeance LPX DDR4 64gb ram (3600 mhz) , (Asus strix oc edition) Nvidia RTX 3080 12gb , Evga g2 850 watt psu, Hardrives ; Samsung 970 EVo, , Samsung evo 860 pro 1 TB SSD, Samsung evo 850 pro 1TB SSD, WD 1TB HDD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deano87 Posted April 17, 2018 Share Posted April 17, 2018 NOPE THIS Except nope.. As long as the aircraft have a vaguely similar level of broad capability parity such as radar, rwr and missiles then pilot skill and training are by a long way the most important thing. If you train long enough with one piece of equipment you can become very efficient and lethal with it. An Su-27 vs F-18 combat with two non-noob pilots will come down to combat entry scenario and pilot skill. A skilled pilot who knows his own aircraft, will know where its weak and where its strong compared to its adversary and knows how to taylor his fighting style to leverage these differences and put the enemy into an unfavourable position. I see many cases where pilots don't know their aircraft online and they put themselves into vulnerable positions which are easy to take advantage of. If you don't believe me just ask all of the Viggen, F5 and Harrier pilots i've shot down on the Cold War server in my little Mig-15 :thumbup: Proud owner of: PointCTRL VR : Finger Trackers for VR -- Real Simulator : FSSB R3L Force Sensing Stick. -- Deltasim : Force Sensor WH Slew Upgrade -- Mach3Ti Ring : Real Flown Mach 3 SR-71 Titanium, made into an amazing ring. My Fathers Aviation Memoirs: 50 Years of Flying Fun - From Hunter to Spitfire and back again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
*Rage* Posted April 17, 2018 Share Posted April 17, 2018 (edited) ^ You contradict yourself. Anyone, in any plane, given the right circumstances can shoot 'noobs' down in a MP server. Infact you dont even need to shoot them down. They'll often kill themselves. Once you equalise the playing field and engagement circumstances the equipment becomes much more important. You might be the best Mig15 pilot out there. But go head to head with a even a slightly less capable Mig21 or AV8B pilot and youll eat an R60m/Aim9M to the face every time before you even get to the merge. Theres no doubt pilot skill is extremely important. But this "pilot skill means I can negate all technological disadvantages" fallacy is born of opportunistic flying in clusterf**k server setups. Really fun and I enjoy it too, but dont read too much into it. Edited April 17, 2018 by ///Rage [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC] 64th "Scorpions" Aggressor Squadron Discord: 64th Aggressor Squadron TS: 195.201.110.22 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vitormouraa Posted April 17, 2018 Share Posted April 17, 2018 Hornet can pull a lot of AoA as you all know. It will probably get the first shot. But it bleeds quite a lot of energy, on the other hand, the Flanker can maintain its energy pretty well. So perhaps, if you try to fight the Flanker based on turning, you'll end up dead just like the Eagle. A few weeks ago I was talking to a U.S Navy pilot and he was telling me a story where the Viper was almost getting the Hornet's six, but they called the Viper dead because of the JHMCS + 9X combo! So be careful when dogfighting a Hornet. It just can't run though, it's not as fast as the Flanker and Eagle. SplashOneGaming Discord https://splashonegaming.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deano87 Posted April 17, 2018 Share Posted April 17, 2018 ^ You contradict yourself. Anyone, in any plane, given the right circumstances can shoot 'noobs' down in a MP server. Infact you dont even need to shoot them down. They'll often kill themselves. Once you equalise the playing field and engagement circumstances the equipment becomes much more important. You might be the best Mig15 pilot out there. But go head to head with a even a slightly less capable Mig21 or AV8B pilot and youll eat an R60m/Aim9M to the face every time before you even get to the merge. Theres no doubt pilot skill is extremely important. But this "pilot skill means I can negate all technological disadvantages" fallacy is born of opportunistic flying in clusterf**k server setups. Really fun and I enjoy it too, but dont read too much into it. You've taken me out of context. In my first sentence I qualified my statement by saying "As long as the aircraft have a vaguely similar level of broad capability parity such as radar, rwr and missiles then pilot skill and training are by a long way the most important thing." this is not the same as "pilot skill means I can negate all technological disadvantages". Do I think a Mig-15 can take on a F-18? er... no. I think in a fight between broadly similarly performing 4th gen aircraft that the aircraft you're flying is much less important than what is between your ears and how honed your skills are. This is a conversation about F-18 vs FC3 aircraft after all. I don't really care if I'm fighting FC3 aircraft, I care more about who's in the cockpit and how good they are. If they are shit hot then they would be a danger to me regardless of what 4th gen aircraft they were flying. You're welcome to argue in a top-trumps fashion that this aircraft has an advantage against that, or this is better than that. But at the end off the day its all pretty pointless conversations when pilots are so variable and so are combat situations. Proud owner of: PointCTRL VR : Finger Trackers for VR -- Real Simulator : FSSB R3L Force Sensing Stick. -- Deltasim : Force Sensor WH Slew Upgrade -- Mach3Ti Ring : Real Flown Mach 3 SR-71 Titanium, made into an amazing ring. My Fathers Aviation Memoirs: 50 Years of Flying Fun - From Hunter to Spitfire and back again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GGTharos Posted April 17, 2018 Share Posted April 17, 2018 I think in a fight between broadly similarly performing 4th gen aircraft that the aircraft you're flying is much less important than what is between your ears and how honed your skills are. Actually no, the aircraft is quite important ... as you described above. I'd rephrase as 'all other things being equal, it comes down to pilot skill'. Once you start having to justify, you're probably just producing too much word salad and need to revise the original statement :) This is a conversation about F-18 vs FC3 aircraft after all. I don't really care if I'm fighting FC3 aircraft, I care more about who's in the cockpit and how good they are. If they are shit hot then they would be a danger to me regardless of what 4th gen aircraft they were flying.I care, there are things a DCS F-18 can do that an FC3 F-15 cannot, and I can take advantage of this. In air superiority, this really should be reversed but eh ... it's an FC3 aircraft so what can I do? :D You're welcome to argue in a top-trumps fashion that this aircraft has an advantage against that, or this is better than that. But at the end off the day its all pretty pointless conversations when pilots are so variable and so are combat situations.But that just makes your entire argument pointless :D:D [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC] Reminder: SAM = Speed Bump :D I used to play flight sims like you, but then I took a slammer to the knee - Yoda Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deano87 Posted April 17, 2018 Share Posted April 17, 2018 Actually no, the aircraft is quite important ... as you described above. I'd rephrase as 'all other things being equal, it comes down to pilot skill'. Once you start having to justify, you're probably just producing too much word salad and need to revise the original statement :) Things are never equal.. and I was taken out of context earlier which is why I was being specific that I was talking about 4th Gen aircraft. But that just makes your entire argument pointless :D:D Actually my point was that it makes your whole argument pointless ;). Proud owner of: PointCTRL VR : Finger Trackers for VR -- Real Simulator : FSSB R3L Force Sensing Stick. -- Deltasim : Force Sensor WH Slew Upgrade -- Mach3Ti Ring : Real Flown Mach 3 SR-71 Titanium, made into an amazing ring. My Fathers Aviation Memoirs: 50 Years of Flying Fun - From Hunter to Spitfire and back again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wicked.- Posted April 19, 2018 Share Posted April 19, 2018 "Oh I wish I had the alpha of the Hornet..." While I can still pitch and roll that other guy's going outa control! Nice! [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC] Intel i9 9900K @ 5.1Ghz HT Disabled, Asus RoG Strix z390E Gaming, 64GB G.Skill Trident Z 3200, Asus RoG Strix RTX2080Ti OC @ 1.9Ghz, 1TB Samsung Evo 970Pro M.2 TM Warthog, CH Pro Pedals, Saitek Pro Rudder Pedals, Samsung 49" Curved Gaming Monitor, Samsung 50" 4KUHD TV, Acer 27" Touch Panel, CV1, Pimax 5K+, Valve Index, FSSB3 Lighting, F-16SGRH, 3 TM Cougar's and a Saitek X36 that I can't bring myself to part with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
F900EX Posted April 19, 2018 Share Posted April 19, 2018 I can't wait for the Viggen pilots shooting down F-18s on youtube :pilotfly: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Banzaiib Posted April 19, 2018 Share Posted April 19, 2018 Launching AMRAAM's via data link is going to be pretty advantageous.... like firing an ET while staring at the Su-27 data link. And 70 degree off boresight aim-9x launches mean turn fights are going to be super dangerous against the F-18. personally, i don't care about the AMRAAM. I play multiplayer only and like servers that restrict to only Aim-7 (don't know why, but i love that missile). But I am really looking forward to the AIM-9X to counter the r-73. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RaceFuel85 Posted April 19, 2018 Share Posted April 19, 2018 "Oh I wish I had the alpha of the Hornet..." ..."Living to fight slow while others scorn it!" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GGTharos Posted April 19, 2018 Share Posted April 19, 2018 Launching AMRAAM's via data link is going to be pretty advantageous.... like firing an ET while staring at the Su-27 data link. Nope ... you don't need to use your own sensors to launch a 120 on an off-board target (Although, the radar does need to be functional since it generates the M-link. It just doesn't need to search or lock on to anything and may only emit the M-link). The R-27 must be locked on target while on the pylon, data-link nothing. In theory you can steer sensors to the DL target provided by GCI in the flanker, but that's not modeled in-game. personally, i don't care about the AMRAAM. I play multiplayer only and like servers that restrict to only Aim-7 (don't know why, but i love that missile). But I am really looking forward to the AIM-9X to counter the r-73. Then you should stop caring about the AIM-9X, for the same reasons you don't care about the AMRAAM. ;) It's beyond a counter to the 73. [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC] Reminder: SAM = Speed Bump :D I used to play flight sims like you, but then I took a slammer to the knee - Yoda Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boogieman Posted April 19, 2018 Share Posted April 19, 2018 Nope ... you don't need to use your own sensors to launch a 120 on an off-board target (Although, the radar does need to be functional since it generates the M-link. It just doesn't need to search or lock on to anything and may only emit the M-link). Do you know if there is any way for the pilot to modify the range at which the 120 goes active? I can think of a few scenarios where having it go pitbull at ~5nm rather than the default ~10nm (in DCS) could be quite a nasty party trick... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GGTharos Posted April 19, 2018 Share Posted April 19, 2018 I can only tell you that I have not seen any such controls. The pilot can select the target size, which sets up fuze sensitivity AFAIK. I suspect the pilot would never actually set the active range since the missile goes through a complicated process to search for its target, distinguish it from other targets and decoys if necessary, then switch to homing mode etc. Perhaps the range is modified by aspect, but I wouldn't know. AFAIK and not modeled in game, the missile would go active at ~13nm to begin HPRF search and target acquisition. It will go 'pitbull' once it switches to MPRF STT - I don't know at what range this happens. The closer to target it goes active, the greater the possibility for said target to maneuver out of the missile's capture basket (search pattern if you will). The AMRAAM isn't meant to be some sort of stealth missile. Just a very scary one. PS: Currently in-game you will get the missile launch warning between 7 and 5nm if the missile is launched in TWS. Do you know if there is any way for the pilot to modify the range at which the 120 goes active? I can think of a few scenarios where having it go pitbull at ~5nm rather than the default ~10nm (in DCS) could be quite a nasty party trick... [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC] Reminder: SAM = Speed Bump :D I used to play flight sims like you, but then I took a slammer to the knee - Yoda Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kev2go Posted April 19, 2018 Share Posted April 19, 2018 I can't wait for the Viggen pilots shooting down F-18s on youtube :pilotfly: interesting dream Build: Windows 10 64 bit Pro Case/Tower: Corsair Graphite 760tm ,Asus Strix Z790 Motherboard, Intel Core i7 12700k ,Corsair Vengeance LPX DDR4 64gb ram (3600 mhz) , (Asus strix oc edition) Nvidia RTX 3080 12gb , Evga g2 850 watt psu, Hardrives ; Samsung 970 EVo, , Samsung evo 860 pro 1 TB SSD, Samsung evo 850 pro 1TB SSD, WD 1TB HDD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boogieman Posted April 20, 2018 Share Posted April 20, 2018 I can only tell you that I have not seen any such controls. ... The AMRAAM isn't meant to be some sort of stealth missile. Just a very scary one. PS: Currently in-game you will get the missile launch warning between 7 and 5nm if the missile is launched in TWS. Yes makes sense. Obviously there is a lot that goes into making sure the missile successfully finds and tracks the correct target at all. Still, being able to tinker with the guidance in this way and in turn minimise the amount of time the target (eg. an unalerted one) has to take evasive action would be a nice trick to have up your sleeve... Thanks for the info! PS. Maybe some time in ~2028 ED will bring in the ASRAAM ala RAAF Hornets and I will get my stealth missile after all haha ;) :lol: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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