Shame on me!

[PoleCat]

I think it is too bad that these exploits are so widely known/used now. A very short time ago I knew nothing of them at all. I am trying to learn all the AC in my favorite sim in at least a fair environment if not a semi realistic one. I will probably lean more heavily on A2G as a result of this. I am disappointed and hope ED does fix this asap. If so at least practicing fair fighting on the servers will pay off when these exploits are removed and people who have relied on them must now alter their tactics to fight the way that we who do not use these exploits have practiced flying all along, as fairly as possible.:D

 

Out

[GGTharos]

@Frost1e or anyone else,

Does anyone know if the R-77 needs to be supported by the radar until it goes active?

 

 

I'm pretty sure that the search volumes on real missiles are actually much smaller than those we have in LO (on the other hand, the active range is about twice again as big in the real thing) so if you didn't guide it in the enemy could fly out of the search zone of the missile.

 

This applies both to 120's and 77's in RL. We probably won't see that much development in that area though until the fighter project.

 

It's a pitty because it makes ARH missiles more fire and forget than they should be.

[Pilotasso]

I think it is too bad that these exploits are so widely known/used now.

 

 

I dont, because it gives a reason for urgent fixing, otherwise it would be given low priority or ignored.

[Ice]

Not only that but why should only a few know? Better everyone knows about it.

[GGTharos]

Actually he wasn't the one making the case for these things to be fixed ... if you're going to give people credit, you might want to give credit where it's due; as far as the ECM issue goes Prophet was the first to post on it.

[Ice]

Thanks GG. I knew i could count on you.

 

Here is what I wrote as a reply to a request made by someone fairly high up in the TFC food chain.

 

Nothing classified here and just possibly is what is being referred to.

 

AIM7 should be able to re-lock Target like the ER's can

 

AIM120 needs to be more effective in Range and Maintaining lock

 

F15 Should be faster and more maneuvrable at slower speeds than it is currently.

 

G-Forces for pilots (Both Sides) need to be increased substantially

 

TWS should automatically adjust elevation scan to the target

 

Option for servers to disable all ECM Jammers on AC

Or ECM jammers automatically turn off after a short period like 5-10 seconds and they cant be enabled again for at least 20 seconds. (This might not be realistic but it would force ECM spammers to play more realistically. Rather than have a hud that looks like the matrix all the time.

 

IFF or Squawk Buttin for F15 at close range. (Major issue for online play)

 

I'm sure there are plenty more.

[Ice]

Aparently the f15 is acurate at low slow speeds and Im very happy to strike that one from the list. If G-Toloerances are raised slightly then guns fights between su27 and F15 would be much better.

[GGTharos]

It's not as if I'm in a tiff with you. I made my statement very specific ;)

I'm not going into it further as it's both pointless, and it's certainly not the place for it either.

 

The F-15 is not accurate at low, slow speeds. But I'll let someone more knowleadgeable explain this one should they drop by.

[GGTharos]

??????????

 

Pretty sure IRL, the F15 can pickle any weapon regardless of lock status...unless u mean something else?

 

I wouldn't be so sure, as I haven't see the F-15 manuals. It isn't impossible, though I recall from the MLU manual the F-16 can inhibit missile launch in some cases.

 

But that's a bit of an aside ... this kind of launch is certainly inhibited on Russian birds, according to the manuals - the missile won't launch without a seeker lock, barring emergency jettison from a pylon that can't blow it away (ie. it actually has to be launched)

[Kuky]

Ice i highly disagree that there should be an option to disable ECM or even for them to automatically get switched off after certain time... a pilot can turn on ECM and leave it like that during the whole flight duration... so why shoulnd't you be able to do it in lockon, and also does the ECM get switched off automatically after few seconds in real aircraft? If not... I don't want that option in lockon.

 

ED should simply strive to simulate what ever is possible and available in real life and if that means an ET can be fired of the rail with Launch Overide... then so be it... weather the ET would be able to lock onto something like this is another matter... but again if the ET can lock onto something then it should also be modeled in lockon.

 

The problem here what many of you are complainging about, and I agree with, is that there are many people flying online who don't realise the downsides of using these kinds of things... you get low if none SA with many ECM pods on in situations of multiple targets and friendlies in the area... and friendly kills with missiles going "mad"...

 

What you will never be able to simulate is actual pilots knowledge and training which flight simmers don't have, and especially people who are knew to aircraft combat and systems... we call nOObs :D

 

How do you tell or make a nOOb not make friendly kills with maddogs or stop using ECm when it's not apropriate??? That's something ED can't do anything about and we have to live with... and ultimately need to chose who we fly with and against.

[GGTharos]

Kuky, the problem is that even if you -could- launch that missile, it behaves unrealistically once launched.

So the question now is this: Is it more realistic to inhibit the launch, or to accept the grossly unrealistic capability of it to acquire a target after such a launch?

So in the end, if you had to trade a minor inaccuracy in weapon systems modelling of a unit vs. a gross inacuracy of overall weapon employment, which do you choose?

Accurate unit, or accurate combat?

[Ice]

Kuky. My suggestion is as a "Stop Gap" only that could be implelmented in Black Shark as opposed to a total rewrite of the code which could be tears away.

[GGTharos]

Tears away ... if only :D

[GGTharos]

I think it may have weapon-specific function ... like launching outside of parameters, but I don't believe it overrides seeker lock for heaters, at least that was the impression I got.

[GGTharos]

I have to agree that it's HIGHLY unlikely that a maddog *place missile here* will hit anything IRL. I would think that designers/manufaturers would design them to NOT track a target and/or self destruct to prevent the missile from locking and killing a friendly.

 

That might be the case; AMRAAM maddogging is usually reserved - IIRC for shooting at things you can plainly see right in front of you - in your HUD.

 

For Heat seekers it's a little different - if there's no seeker lock before launch, the missile could quite literally go after anything. It's basically looking through a soda straw so 'anything' will likely not be your target.

 

That's what ED really needs to work on, not necessarily the launch override switch. The Override switch/feature, AFAIK, is meant to allow the pilot to fire if the missile is locked, yet is still slightly out of parameters (completely different from a maddog situation, which has no lock (IR, radar, EO) at all.

 

 

The problem is that there won't be a redesign of missile behavior in this respect for a long while. So inhibiting launch against a missile with no seeker lock is about all you can do - a heater specifically, radar missiles will fire long range without seeker lock as they couldn't possibly see their targets that far, but they get the mid-course updates instead, until they get closer.

[Ice]

Mad Dogging is fine. Team killing isnt. Mad Dog alot and you'll team kill alot. Team kill alot expect to get sinbinned from servers.

 

thats how you learn.

[Kuky]

I would like to see in this sim... or any other for that matter... simulated real life possibilities and effects. I think replacing one issue with another is not good. If ED prohibits launch overide mode to stop people who don't know what they are doing and firing without lock and possibly killing a friendly... to me they are making this sim less realistic.

 

ED should definitely try to simulate real life as close as possible (and allowing given information) and implement more systems/modes to given weapons. I think russian aircraft are modeled quite well (since ED is after all a russian company with more knowledge of weapons from their back yard... understandably).

 

They should really concentrate more to get the F-15 modeled closely to what it's like in real life, its weapons and systems.

 

For the sake of balance and objectivity... and simulation. They can easily have less realistic and more nOOb/fun friendly mode anyway.

[TucksonSonny]

LOL we all had a gag about the Quality Controll freak afterwords. HE was still PI$$ed at the end (I think he will be for months) for a litle stupid thing as suggesting changing a Engineers curriculum list for a task, that couldnt fit in a form he locked and protected in a MS word file (Where I could only fill designated blank spaces). Over the phone I could hear him ripp off his hair and got blamed for trying to cheat the system! That when the list wasnt even made by me. LOL :lol:

 

It is unnavoidable, I always was wary of MEtrology and Quality controll freaks. They will always correct you whenever you say something like "precise" and will talk a guy down about the difference why it should be said "exact" instead. :lol:

 

After a bad day at the office she will cheer you up.

My favorite comedian youtube poster and she is also a very cute/hot and smart woman:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BY75srb_KFU&mode=related&search=

:D

[Pilotasso]

Its not a she, its a him Im afraid. :(

[Scart]

I think russian aircraft are modeled quite well (since ED is after all a russian company with more knowledge of weapons from their back yard... understandably).

You wrong with this statement. The level of on board electronic systems modelling on the russian a/c even lower than F-15C or A-10A has. It's still very difficult to find out reliable information on russian a/c, for ex. flight manual for Su-27S still not accesable only for the Su-27SK (K - "kommercheskii" commercial version). Althought many of wellknown systems still not represented in the game such as target distribution capability, multitarget engagement capability and some other. Even the fuel consumtion charachteristics are not properly modelled. The same for Su-25(T). The point is nor that ED is a russian based company, it's more easier to collect open information on Eagle than on Flanker. So guys who flying Eagles you are lucky ones you have a little more useful things for combat. ;)

[Pilotasso]

You wrong with this statement. The level of on board electronic systems modelling on the russian a/c even lower than F-15C or A-10A has. It's still very difficult to find out reliable information on russian a/c, for ex. flight manual for Su-27S still not accesable only for the Su-27SK (K - "kommercheskii" commercial version). Althought many of wellknown systems still not represented in the game such as target distribution capability, multitarget engagement capability and some other. Even the fuel consumtion charachteristics are not properly modelled. The same for Su-25(T). The point is nor that ED is a russian based company, it's more easier to collect open information on Eagle than on Flanker. So guys who flying Eagles you are lucky ones you have a little more useful things for combat. ;)

 

Su-27 variants untill the SM had no true multi target capability but time shared R-27 guidance wich IMHo would have a very hard time getting any use in this game. F-15's is realy hard to use as it is anyway.

[Scart]

I was talking about MiG-29 (9-13C) in that case.

[Pilotasso]

^^^^ less radar range...

[Scart]

2 Cali: most of people from russian forums consider that:

1. The 77 bleeds speed off like it has a parachute on and has a poor seeker than 120.

2. ED stealed 2 target capbility from MiG

3. ED stealed target distribution from Su

 

poor ED they just between hammer and nail :)

 

The russian jets can tell exactly how far the missile is from their jet.

but how? =)

 

edit: oh i get it, you've meant the inbound missle... yeah - thats should be corrected, but I think it wouldn't :(

 

the ET bug borders almost every person

 

and R-27ER is really faster and longer range than 120, but it lacks the active seeker

 

oh, one more thing if MiG fires 77 in HOJ mode the target shouldn't have a launch signal on RWR and if Eagle fires 7F the target should have a llaunch signal on RWR

[TucksonSonny]

edit: oh i get it, you've meant the inbound missle... yeah - thats should be corrected, but I think it wouldn't :(

 

The RWR? Or what else?

the ET bug borders almost every person

 

 

Overriding the ET is a bug? :D