Cold War 1947 - 1991

[Dirt_Merchant]

1 minute ago, CORMAC ogaruu said:

There has been. As a free mod, the answer was no. As a paid module, most definitely. I'm paraphrasing an earlier post by Alpenwolf. Search for a4 or A-4 or A-4E-C in this forum and you'll find the post I'm referring to.

Sent from my Lenovo YT-X705F using Tapatalk
 

 

It seems that there should be more to this than just "its free so no".

[BonerCat]

2 hours ago, Dirt_Merchant said:

 

It seems that there should be more to this than just "its free so no".

It's more of "Everyone has to have it to join the server, so no"

[Alpenwolf]

8 minutes ago, BonerCat said:

It's more of "Everyone has to have it to join the server, so no"

 

This.

 

2 hours ago, Dirt_Merchant said:

 

It seems that there should be more to this than just "its free so no".

 

A mod would force all to download and install it. That's the only reason. Believe me, I'd love nothing more than having tha A-4 added to the server!

[Dirt_Merchant]

57 minutes ago, Alpenwolf said:

 

This.

 

 

A mod would force all to download and install it. That's the only reason. Believe me, I'd love nothing more than having tha A-4 added to the server!

 

I totally understand your concern here and agree that is a problem for sure - the good news is that there is a solve for this, though it has a caveat, which is stupid, but may be acceptable...

 

I took this from the A4E Discord - i hope this isnt any kind of toe-stepping!

[CORMAC ogaruu]

Alpen, to my eyes, this looks really easy to implement.

[Dirt_Merchant]

5 minutes ago, CORMAC ogaruu said:

What would these arrangements you mention be? And what would it entail to implement them, please?

Sent from my SM-A715F using Tapatalk
 

 

I ninja'd you - check my post just above yours.

 

the caveat is that it'd be weird to see a flanker dropping snakeyes for bluefor lol. i checked in the A4 discord to see if anyone had any ideas on how to maybe force another model in this case, but they said is a fallback behavior inherent to the engine.

Edited June 8, 2021 by Dirt_Merchant

[CORMAC ogaruu]

 
I ninja'd you - check my post just above yours.
 
the caveat is that it'd be weird to see a flanker dropping snakeyes for bluefor lol. i checked in the A4 discord to see if anyone had any ideas on how to maybe force another model in this case, but they said is a fallback behavior inherent to the engine.

Well yes but that'd just happen for people that don't have the mod installed. The mission would still run.

Sent from my SM-A715F using Tapatalk

[Dirt_Merchant]

1 minute ago, CORMAC ogaruu said:

Well yes but that'd just happen for people that don't have the mod installed. The mission would still run.

Sent from my SM-A715F using Tapatalk
 

 

Sure would!

[CORMAC ogaruu]

 
Sure would!

And people that don't have it and don't like seeing an Su-27 could be directed to download the mod just as they are directed to download SRS.

Sent from my SM-A715F using Tapatalk

[Dirt_Merchant]

2 minutes ago, CORMAC ogaruu said:

And people that don't have it and don't like seeing an Su-27 could be directed to download the mod just as they are directed to download SRS.

Sent from my SM-A715F using Tapatalk
 

 

Yes, i feel this is reasonable:)

[rossmum]

33 minutes ago, CORMAC ogaruu said:

Alpen, to my eyes, this looks really easy to implement.

 

The problem isn't allowing people to join without it, the problem is what happens when they do. Players without the mod will see a Su-27 (possibly without textures), a much larger aircraft with much larger hitboxes, performing like a Skyhawk. Players who don't regularly update the mod may have issues getting features to work, or there may be bugs or missing features that have since been fixed in newer versions (particularly FM and DM related) which could turn out to give an unfair advantage. I don't know if integrity checks will trigger on modified files for an external mod, but that could also lead to issues if people figure out how to modify the files (it's an open-sourced community mod...) and give themselves things they shouldn't have.

 

We also then have the very likely situation that the combination of small size, excellent agility, and four Sidewinders will result in yet another purpose-built strike aircraft being turned into the new meta fighter. It might've served that role in various militaries, but if the point of the server is to focus on MiGs vs F-5s (and later F-8s and F1s), it could shift the gameplay quite abruptly.

[ustio]

+1 for A-4 mod. I think its going to make the server even more popular that there is a public PvP server that use a free mod.

 

 

Edited June 8, 2021 by ustio

[rossmum]

I should note that I absolutely love the mod and have been itching to fly it in MP, I just think we shouldn't rush into adding it. Maybe a single mission at first to test the waters, see how it goes. At any rate you're going to need to signpost the hell out of it, maybe "now with Community A-4E mod" in the server name and then a huge "HEY GO DOWNLOAD THE A-4E MOD'S LATEST VERSION HERE IF YOU DON'T HAVE IT" at the top of the briefing/periodically posted into chat. We might all be regulars and might know what's going on, but it's pretty obvious from the daily "why can't I spawn my Tomcat" questions in chat that the average DCS player is allergic to reading anything on the briefing screen and doesn't follow this thread.

[CORMAC ogaruu]

I should note that I absolutely love the mod and have been itching to fly it in MP, I just think we shouldn't rush into adding it. Maybe a single mission at first to test the waters, see how it goes. At any rate you're going to need to signpost the hell out of it, maybe "now with Community A-4E mod" in the server name and then a huge "HEY GO DOWNLOAD THE A-4E MOD'S LATEST VERSION HERE IF YOU DON'T HAVE IT" at the top of the briefing/periodically posted into chat. We might all be regulars and might know what's going on, but it's pretty obvious from the daily "why can't I spawn my Tomcat" questions in chat that the average DCS player is allergic to reading anything on the briefing screen and doesn't follow this thread.

1. Yes on a trial basis of course at first. 2
Why should we rob ourselves of an experience because people don't read the briefing in a study sim?

Sent from my SM-A715F using Tapatalk

 
The problem isn't allowing people to join without it, the problem is what happens when they do. Players without the mod will see a Su-27 (possibly without textures), a much larger aircraft with much larger hitboxes, performing like a Skyhawk. Players who don't regularly update the mod may have issues getting features to work, or there may be bugs or missing features that have since been fixed in newer versions (particularly FM and DM related) which could turn out to give an unfair advantage. I don't know if integrity checks will trigger on modified files for an external mod, but that could also lead to issues if people figure out how to modify the files (it's an open-sourced community mod...) and give themselves things they shouldn't have.
 
We also then have the very likely situation that the combination of small size, excellent agility, and four Sidewinders will result in yet another purpose-built strike aircraft being turned into the new meta fighter. It might've served that role in various militaries, but if the point of the server is to focus on MiGs vs F-5s (and later F-8s and F1s), it could shift the gameplay quite abruptly.

If the point of the server is to focus on MIGs vs F-5s why are there Tomcats chasing Frogfoots? Why even have any sort of air to air missile for the Viggen if it historically was intended as a ground attacker? Why even have logi helos? None of those are required for the server to maintain an endless stream of furballs. But we don't all join this server to dogfight F-5s

Sent from my SM-A715F using Tapatalk

[CORMAC ogaruu]

I should note that I absolutely love the mod and have been itching to fly it in MP, I just think we shouldn't rush into adding it. Maybe a single mission at first to test the waters, see how it goes. At any rate you're going to need to signpost the hell out of it, maybe "now with Community A-4E mod" in the server name and then a huge "HEY GO DOWNLOAD THE A-4E MOD'S LATEST VERSION HERE IF YOU DON'T HAVE IT" at the top of the briefing/periodically posted into chat. We might all be regulars and might know what's going on, but it's pretty obvious from the daily "why can't I spawn my Tomcat" questions in chat that the average DCS player is allergic to reading anything on the briefing screen and doesn't follow this thread.

Also players who don't regularly update SRS face the exact same issues. How ia that logistically different?

Sent from my SM-A715F using Tapatalk

[CORMAC ogaruu]

Also players who don't regularly update SRS face the exact same issues. How ia that logistically different?

Sent from my SM-A715F using Tapatalk

Also also we could even stretch your train of thought and argue that people that don't regularly update their open beta version face the same issue. And to take it to the absurd if you say "people that don't update their X can't play" we should all stop joining because some people are still on stable and can't join... And we have to think of those people. That can't move to open beta, that can't use SRS, that can't update SRS, that can't read briefings. But we don't.

Sent from my SM-A715F using Tapatalk

[Dirt_Merchant]

21 minutes ago, rossmum said:

I should note that I absolutely love the mod and have been itching to fly it in MP, I just think we shouldn't rush into adding it. Maybe a single mission at first to test the waters, see how it goes. At any rate you're going to need to signpost the hell out of it, maybe "now with Community A-4E mod" in the server name and then a huge "HEY GO DOWNLOAD THE A-4E MOD'S LATEST VERSION HERE IF YOU DON'T HAVE IT" at the top of the briefing/periodically posted into chat. We might all be regulars and might know what's going on, but it's pretty obvious from the daily "why can't I spawn my Tomcat" questions in chat that the average DCS player is allergic to reading anything on the briefing screen and doesn't follow this thread.

 

I agree with your concerns and think they're valid and should be addressed in proper fashion -at the same time I think that the value of the scooter for this server is undeniable. The charm of this server is also in the type of players it attracts - and I think critically, repels.

 

The real core of this server's community I think, and please let me know if you think I am off-base here, would find no hardship in grabbing the module, I mean hell - the bird is straight up a peak cold war aircraft.

 

I'll accept the decision one way or the other, but man, its surely a warranted addition in terms of its place in the era, and its roots in the community.

[Alpenwolf]

The A-4 mod would cause problems as I can see in the attached post on how to do it. Like I said, I truely would love to add it but not like this. I can't risk having yet other bugs and malfunctions due to ramming more mods and scripts into the missions. I'm having problems with actual modules and their bugs already.

 

 

Note:

 

Many users always argue that doing something or adding a module or a feature would get more players to join the server and we could have 50+ or 60+ players. Well, guess what! I'm not after that. Don't get me wrong, everyone is welcome to fly otherwise there'd be a password for the server. The issue is this: There is no point in just stacking the server with players and having bigger furballs making it eventually harder for helicopters and strikers to complete their objectives. There is a reason why in most missions you see 8 x MiG-21 vs 8 x F-5 slots max. I could double that amount and the number of slots for every other module as well if it had been about the numbers.

It's not a competition to me for which server gets more numbers. Operation The Tunb Identity is a good example for that where 8 x MiG-21's and 2 x MiG-19's fight against 8 x F-5's and 2 x AJS37's, plus 6 x Mi-8's vs 6 x UH-1's. That's 32 players max. In fact, the less the better to avoid continuous airquakes.

 

To me there has to be a certain storyline, a mission scenario that makes sense to the players. Otherwise why bother fly a striker instead of a fighter and jumping into furballs? Why fly a helicopter? Why do GCI and help the team if it wouldn't matter that much? So basically it's about combining different assets and hopefully squeezing some indispensable team effort out of them in a way we get the most out of a mission to have... well... FUN! At least that's how I see it which is why that's how I do it. That's why I always emphasise the importance of users' feedback and criticism. Just recently NELLUS had the idea of adding ATC frequencies for pilots to use while taxiing, taking off and landing to reduce comms overload on the GCI/EWR frequency. It never really occurred to me to be honst so I did it right away. Done. And it looks like players are using the ATC frequencies.

 

Bear in mind, please, that I never claimed my missions to be perfect or the best out there for the maximum amount of accessible fun you can get. Hence the emphasis on users' feedback and criticism and I'm constantly changing things in all missions. Never perfect or the best.

Edited June 8, 2021 by Alpenwolf

[Dirt_Merchant]

5 minutes ago, Alpenwolf said:

 Never perfect or the best.

 

maybe not perfect, but def the best MP PVP on DCS.

 

Its a heartbreak but i'm sure we will cope - maybe its something to look at in the future if things change around implementation.

[rossmum]

35 minutes ago, CORMAC ogaruu said:

Also players who don't regularly update SRS face the exact same issues. How ia that logistically different?

Sent from my SM-A715F using Tapatalk

 

SRS updates are usually backwards-compatible, and when they aren't, it's usually pretty easy to figure out the problem. Not so if someone has forgotten to update the A-4 - they might not even realise, much less anyone else. In a PvP environment, that leads to potential problems.

 

If I didn't have good reason to expect endless headaches from adding the mod, I'd be all for it - but it's a bit deeper than "people should read the briefings in a study sim". This is a PvP server, maybe half or even less of the people on it "study" anything. I occasionally skim the flight manuals if I need to check up on something and I read the briefings on missions I'm not already familiar with, but plenty of people do even less than that. When even in the A-4 discord there were people who required the mod's developers to walk them through the process of updating it to the correct version, after several hours of them not realising they still had the SFM version during the EFM test (which would be an absolute disaster in PvP as the SFM version had UFO-like handling qualities and an extremely simplified damage model), I think you're being unrealistically optimistic about how well the mod would work on this server.

 

With PvP servers in particular, you can't cater to the best-case scenario and just trust everyone to stick to it. There will be people who need warning labels on chainsaws, and there will be people who will intentionally try to use things to create an unfair advantage. You have to account for both.

[CORMAC ogaruu]

 
SRS updates are usually backwards-compatible, and when they aren't, it's usually pretty easy to figure out the problem. Not so if someone has forgotten to update the A-4 - they might not even realise, much less anyone else. In a PvP environment, that leads to potential problems.
 
If I didn't have good reason to expect endless headaches from adding the mod, I'd be all for it - but it's a bit deeper than "people should read the briefings in a study sim". This is a PvP server, maybe half or even less of the people on it "study" anything. I occasionally skim the flight manuals if I need to check up on something and I read the briefings on missions I'm not already familiar with, but plenty of people do even less than that. When even in the A-4 discord there were people who required the mod's developers to walk them through the process of updating it to the correct version, after several hours of them not realising they still had the SFM version during the EFM test (which would be an absolute disaster in PvP as the SFM version had UFO-like handling qualities and an extremely simplified damage model), I think you're being unrealistically optimistic about how well the mod would work on this server.
 
With PvP servers in particular, you can't cater to the best-case scenario and just trust everyone to stick to it. There will be people who need warning labels on chainsaws, and there will be people who will intentionally try to use things to create an unfair advantage. You have to account for both.

I understand your rationale. I disagree for many reasons I honestly can't be bothered to type now that Alpenwolf has made his decision but I understand. We'll just have to wait for the Mirage F1 or the MiG-23, I suppose.

Sent from my Lenovo YT-X705F using Tapatalk

[Dirt_Merchant]

47 minutes ago, rossmum said:

 

SRS updates are usually backwards-compatible, and when they aren't, it's usually pretty easy to figure out the problem. Not so if someone has forgotten to update the A-4 - they might not even realise, much less anyone else. In a PvP environment, that leads to potential problems.

 

If I didn't have good reason to expect endless headaches from adding the mod, I'd be all for it - but it's a bit deeper than "people should read the briefings in a study sim". This is a PvP server, maybe half or even less of the people on it "study" anything. I occasionally skim the flight manuals if I need to check up on something and I read the briefings on missions I'm not already familiar with, but plenty of people do even less than that. When even in the A-4 discord there were people who required the mod's developers to walk them through the process of updating it to the correct version, after several hours of them not realising they still had the SFM version during the EFM test (which would be an absolute disaster in PvP as the SFM version had UFO-like handling qualities and an extremely simplified damage model), I think you're being unrealistically optimistic about how well the mod would work on this server.

 

With PvP servers in particular, you can't cater to the best-case scenario and just trust everyone to stick to it. There will be people who need warning labels on chainsaws, and there will be people who will intentionally try to use things to create an unfair advantage. You have to account for both.

 

 

I think you're overly dug in on your position to have a meaningful discussion with.

 

 

[rossmum]

I'm overly dug in because of previous experience. Assuming that even half of the players on the server ever read this thread or particularly care to preserve the intended gameplay is a mistake.

[CORMAC ogaruu]

I'm overly dug in because of previous experience. Assuming that even half of the players on the server ever read this thread or particularly care to preserve the intended gameplay is a mistake.

If you are correct and half the people playing don't care to preserve the intended gameplay and the slots are so limited then why would we make concessions for them?

Sent from my SM-A715F using Tapatalk

Edited:

I'm talking outside the context of the A-4. That matter is settled.

[rossmum]

Because they're going to join the server and play it how they want to play it, whether or not that's enjoyable for the rest of us. Again, this is a public server, not some insular community run for a squadron made up of 40-somethings who all get together to play co-op PvE after work. You have to account for the playerbase you have, not the one you want, because as long as the server remains public, the one you want will only ever make up part of your actual server.

 

To elaborate, though, on the A-4 specifically for Dirt Merchant, here's what will happen:

 

• People will join the server without the mod installed, or with it installed incorrectly (as most of the DCS community struggle to even install liveries without explicit instructions). Those people will see Su-27s flying around. At best, they will complain in chat that they have to fight Su-27s with older planes, or complain that they can't see the slots and want to fly it themselves.
• More likely, the F-5s will shoot the "Su-27s", because they can't IFF and rely on visual ID. Teamkill. The MiG-19s and the large number of radar-incompetent MiG-21 players will fail to destroy enemy aircraft or complain about being "teamkilled" by those "Su-27s", because they can't or didn't IFF them to see they're hostile. The 19 is VID only and a worrying amount of 21 players either don't use their radar or don't know how to IFF with it.
• Someone will have the wrong version of the mod, and be able to handily out-fly everything else on the entire server because the SFM was, to put it frankly, a UFO. Best case this is just annoying, worst case is that the person doing it is doing so intentionally as some kind of minmaxing strategy (because this is PvP and competitive people exist). This will cause constant headaches back and forth as nobody enjoys getting farmed for kills by something you have no answer to, and whoever is doing the farming is usually having a fun time annoying everyone else.
• Any bugs introduced with updates to the mod may affect server stability and will be much harder to troubleshoot, as there are a lot less people to find bugs with the A-4 than there are with the official modules.

There is a very, very, very, very good reason why the only servers that run mods are part of relatively insular (or PvE, or both) communities where almost all players are in some common Discord or Facebook group or whatever. It is an absolute nightmare for the server owner to deal with and magnifies the problems that already come with core game patches.