IFF

[backspace340]

I've noticed several instances in PVP lately of Hornets shooting down friendlies that their IFF marked as enemies (by displaying a diamond). In my own experience, the IFF seems fairly unreliable, with some false-positives and false-negatives at all sorts of ranges. Is this a bug we should be reporting, or is this how ED have designed it to work?

[DUSTY]

+1 I have experienced the same.

 

 

Often known friendlies are displayed as Hostile. In my last flight the friendly tanker was shown as a hostile when there were definitely no hostile aircraft even loaded in the mission. Next time it happens I'll submit a log file.

[Gunslinger22]

Interesting, can you provide some proof of your claims? It works fine for me?

[RED]

If the target is not in front of you, it will not be identified. Realistic or not, bring the target inside your HUD and you are fine. IFF will change dramatically if it gets implemented like ED plans to.

[Fri13]

If the target is not identified as friend, then you need to do visual identification or confirm target is hostile by other means.

 

IFF does not say "HE IS A ENEMY", it only does say "He is a friend, don't shoot!".

 

If the target is not identified as a friend, it still can be a friend. The either one can have wrong IFF code or mode, malfunctioning system, be some interference because jamming, not being able to respond etc.

 

That is more of a wrong piloting by the pilots who go to shoot targets that are not marked as friends and it is their fault.

 

The IFF system is there to avoid unnecessary interceptions or to gain a situational awareness when you are 100% sure that there is only 2 friendlies in target area (you are talking to them over radio etc) and 2 non-friendlies (attacking the friendlies in area) and you can that way use a such information to separate enemy from owns.

 

So if the IFF doesn't inform that target is a friend, you need to assume target can be a friend, can be a civilian or can be a enemy and perform interception etc operating without IFF.

[DUSTY]

Okay I guess i need some clarification as to the EA implementation of IFF in the Hornet. Can someone point me in the right direction? The only documentation I've seen is in the changelog and it states "Added very basic IFF"

 

I thought the basic nature of the early access IFF was pretty black and white. Aircraft on the red coalition would display as a diamond and on the blue would display as a square and it was that simple. Proper IFF is understood to be in the works.

[QuiGon]

Okay I guess i need some clarification as to the EA implementation of IFF in the Hornet. Can someone point me in the right direction? The only documentation I've seen is in the changelog and it states "Added very basic IFF"

 

I thought the basic nature of the early access IFF was pretty black and white. Aircraft on the red coalition would display as a diamond and on the blue would display as a square and it was that simple. Proper IFF is understood to be in the works.

And that's actually the case. The thing is just, that the friendly box indication can look like a hostile diamond if it is outside the HUD or if you are in a bank.

[backspace340]

If the target is not identified as friend, then you need to do visual identification or confirm target is hostile by other means.

 

IFF does not say "HE IS A ENEMY", it only does say "He is a friend, don't shoot!".

 

If the target is not identified as a friend, it still can be a friend. The either one can have wrong IFF code or mode, malfunctioning system, be some interference because jamming, not being able to respond etc.

 

That is more of a wrong piloting by the pilots who go to shoot targets that are not marked as friends and it is their fault.

 

The IFF system is there to avoid unnecessary interceptions or to gain a situational awareness when you are 100% sure that there is only 2 friendlies in target area (you are talking to them over radio etc) and 2 non-friendlies (attacking the friendlies in area) and you can that way use a such information to separate enemy from owns.

 

So if the IFF doesn't inform that target is a friend, you need to assume target can be a friend, can be a civilian or can be a enemy and perform interception etc operating without IFF.

 

That's not the symbology we have - in the Hornet a diamond on the HUD means 'Hostile', a box with no writing means 'Unknown' and a box with FRIEND on top means 'Friend'. It is possible for the Hornet to identify a target as hostile (though not using the actual IFF system) - either the pilot can designate it manually or it can be done with NCTR (you can see this in the Mig-21 shoot down video from Desert Storm - the plane is 'sniffed' as a Mig-21 and the box turns to a diamond

). With the simple system we have - diamond means enemy, box means friendly/unknown (because ED don't seem to have added the 'FRIEND' text yet).

 

For clarification - what I am describing is that the plane is within the HUD, locked and displayed as a diamond (and definitely a diamond) but it is actually a friendly. So what I'm asking is if there is meant to be a margin of error and false positives/negatives, if not then there are bugs that need to be reported (and which I've not seen reported). I'll get some evidence of it happening when I can next game.

Edited June 27, 2018 by backspace340

[DUSTY]

And that's actually the case. The thing is just, that the friendly box indication can look like a hostile diamond if it is outside the HUD or if you are in a bank.

 

Thank you, but that was not the case in this instance - the difference between box and diamond was and is very easily discernible. :)

 

 

That's not the symbology we have - in the Hornet a diamond on the HUD means 'Hostile', a box with no writing means 'Unknown' and a box with FRIEND on top means 'Friend'. It is possible for the Hornet to identify a target as hostile (though not using the actual IFF system) - either the pilot can designate it manually or it can be done with NCTR (you can see this in the Mig-21 shoot down video from Desert Storm - the plane is 'sniffed' as a Mig-21 and the box turns to a diamond

). With the simple system we have - diamond means enemy, box means friendly/unknown (because ED don't seem to have added the 'FRIEND' text yet).

 

For clarification - what I am describing is that the plane is within the HUD, locked and displayed as a diamond (and definitely a diamond) but it is actually a friendly. So what I'm asking is if there is meant to be a margin of error and false positives/negatives, if not then there are bugs that need to be reported (and which I've not seen reported). I'll get some evidence of it happening when I can next game.

 

 

I concur with you 100%.

Edited June 27, 2018 by |DUSTY|

[IvanK]

"either the pilot can designate it manually or it can be done with NCTR (you can see this in the Mig-21 shoot down video from Desert Storm - the plane is 'sniffed' as a Mig-21 and the box turns to a diamond

). With the simple system we have - diamond means enemy, box means friendly/unknown (because ED don't seem to have added the 'FRIEND' text yet)."

 

 

NCTR wont ID anything as Hostile or Friendly it may tell you what it thinks the aircraft type is but thats it. Consider if you have the same types on both sides .... NCTR doesn't know that

[backspace340]

"either the pilot can designate it manually or it can be done with NCTR (you can see this in the Mig-21 shoot down video from Desert Storm - the plane is 'sniffed' as a Mig-21 and the box turns to a diamond

). With the simple system we have - diamond means enemy, box means friendly/unknown (because ED don't seem to have added the 'FRIEND' text yet)."

 

 

NCTR wont ID anything as Hostile or Friendly it may tell you what it thinks the aircraft type is but thats it. Consider if you have the same types on both sides .... NCTR doesn't know that

 

Fair enough - though what explains the target changing to a hostile designation in that video? Is there some other feature at work? I can't imagine the pilot did it manually, I just assumed there would be some way to program before a mission - where you know the plane types on both sides - that if a Mig-21 pops up then it's enemy (it's not like there were any friendly Mig-21s in Desert Storm).

[IvanK]

The IFF interrogation can be set up in various ways to provide specific Mode interrogations more or less automatically etc or can be commanded to specifically interrogate a target with manual initiation by the pilot.

 

 

All of this takes time. I suggest all you are seeing in this video is the time taken by the IFF/DL etc to do its stuff then display the hostile TD diamond.

[backspace340]

The IFF interrogation can be set up in various ways to provide specific Mode interrogations more or less automatically etc or can be commanded to specifically interrogate a target with manual initiation by the pilot.

 

 

All of this takes time. I suggest all you are seeing in this video is the time taken by the IFF/DL etc to do its stuff then display the hostile TD diamond.

 

Does that mean that the IFF interrogation CAN identify something as hostile, rather than just friendly/unknown?

 

Just in case someone gets confused: I know the answer to that question from publicly available information is 'No'. But *something* changed that target to hostile in the Mig-21 shoot-down video, and if NCTR can't do it and IFF can't do it, then the only other (public) method I can think of is that the pilot edited the track manually using his DDI/UFC, which he didn't have time to do (and why bother, he didn't need the hostile designation, he was going to shoot anyway - check the Fighter Pilot Podcast episode where that pilot describes what he was doing). So that means....something else did it? Could it have been the AWACs marking it hostile and it transferring over datalink?

Edited June 28, 2018 by backspace340

[blkspade]

Does that mean that the IFF interrogation CAN identify something as hostile, rather than just friendly/unknown?

 

Just in case someone gets confused: I know the answer to that question from publicly available information is 'No'. But *something* changed that target to hostile in the Mig-21 shoot-down video, and if NCTR can't do it and IFF can't do it, then the only other (public) method I can think of is that the pilot edited the track manually using his DDI/UFC, which he didn't have time to do (and why bother, he didn't need the hostile designation, he was going to shoot anyway - check the Fighter Pilot Podcast episode where that pilot describes what he was doing). So that means....something else did it? Could it have been the AWACs marking it hostile and it transferring over datalink?

 

Given the example from the video, the default state is just that all contacts are unknown, until either passing or failing the IFF interrogation. The transition is likely the result of a confirmed failed IFF response.