PA Throttle Response and Sea-Sawing Help

[russhin]

Hey guys and gals,

 

I have been trying to get as much practice as I can doing my around the carrier slow flight, and I am just having the worst time with the plane diving and pitching up in an oscillation.

 

I watched the videos by jabber, Lex and A.E.W, and feel very comfortable with the actual pattern and procedure, but cannot get the aircraft to onto a steady VSI state no matter what I do, it seems like it will stay at a nice fixed rate of decent but then just accelerate down or up depending on the slightest throttle movement. I am using trim for my on-speed and am not using my stick for pitch at all, but no matter how perfect the throttle is set it just starts sliding off up or down, then becomes just a big roller coaster. I am trying to stay ahead of the aircraft in terms giving it throttle ahead of time so I do not chase it, but just cant get it right. Also it seems like even when I level out after the break onto the downwind the plane wants to go swimming :)

 

Anyone have any advice on how to cope with this, or is this a current flight model issue that maybe is causing this?

 

Thanks in advance.

[HawkDCS]

This has been complained about quite a bit. Its Early days so sure FM will be tuned more and more.

 

On final you are going to be moving throttle alot its like that in real life aswell.

 

My feeling is the plane could use some more inertia. But you still will be working the throttles on final regardless.

[David OC]

Like HawkDCS said, you will be moving the throttles constantly and you need to find a good sea sawing balance with the throttle to stay around where you need to be. Don't get so caught up in flying the pattern perfectly, think of each position as markers to hit and aim for. A little low (570 feet) turning from the 180 abeam? Then have a smaller descent rate, 480 at the 90? little high now, so bit more descent rate coming into the 45 etc. It's all a dance setting you up for the groove.

 

With practice you get better a judging where you should be, it's why they train so much, even when on land.

[HawkDCS]

David is right. I was watching a carrier aviation documentary and said they practice 300-400+ landings on land with arresting cables before even trying to land on carrier. So if you are having trouble practice more.

 

I have been flying sims since 1992 and getting in the grove is taking me time and practice.

Edited June 29, 2018 by HawkDCS

[dugite57]

You're no orphan russhin. the seasawing is driving me nuts. can have it flying straight and level, trimmed to perfect AoA in the middle of the E and as soon as I bank it goes haywire. I';m using X-55 hotas, and have worked out that the slightest, imperceptible movement on the throttle will increase/decrease RPM by a mere 1-2% and that's enough for a 400-600' variation in vertical climb rate. I've somehow caught the wire twice after about 8 hours trying, but it's messwy, very messy :) But yeah, the ossilation's doing my head in. I've seen all the youtubes where they are able to keep it all smooth throughout the banking and final approach, but I can't. Wondering if it's a Siatech issue?

[HawkDCS]

Dug if you are banking you are changing the center of lift. The wings don't generate the same vertical lift in a bank so you will need to add power to maintain vertical speed in a bank. Always add power when banking to maintain rate of decent etc.

Edited June 29, 2018 by HawkDCS

[Pikey]

I put some curves on the last third of the throttle before the AB detent. Even a little helps. At the top third there's the most work done. I feel a bit sorry for those without dedicated throttles.

 

 

 

You should try to find your rough area which holds you at a steady speed, much like you do when flying formation or Air refuelling. My left hand/arm has woken up from a long sleep.

 

 

Once you have that roughly found, to add or take away power you don't so much set a new power setting but take it off and put it back on almost immediately. Back...forward. Check. Back ... forward. Check. Your hand needs to know where on the throttle the start point is, and return to that point. In time the movements are proportionate to the power change you want and finer adjustments less of a change.

 

 

 

Having said all that, I never taught my hand to do this. In fact when it started doing this (I think AAR which I didn't bother much with in DCS until Harrier time) I wondered if it was something others did and checked a couple of videos. You do actually see pilots doing this, but less often, since I guess they know the right power setting position a lot easier from time spent.

 

If you do it flat, then do it either side of a 30 degree bank and you see how much lift you lose and gain and then realise you can anticipate that loss and gain of lift and should add or deduct power before you make the roll change.

 

 

I don't think anyone here really says any of this is easy, genuinely practice is the best answer in every case. There's no silver bullet that get's you there faster.

[russhin]

Thank you for all the tips and comments, I have been doing some laps and with a tad of stick input have been able to keep the oscillation down to minimum, allowing me to actually get to the groove, I am still very high most passes, but have been able to manage a couple touch and go on the deck... and then realized my hook has been up the whole time... yep, just some good old fashioned stupidity.

[russhin]

Something magical happened, and after the successful (questionably so) trap, something clicked and it became a little easier to not only regulate the throttle but to also start seeing the ball and actually using it, before it was non existent, now I can sort start judging my approach with the ball. Again thank you everyone, were slowly getting there.

[xWARGOx]

soon as i get to full flaps it goes down hill so bad for me

[russhin]

It helps if you get your flaps and gear out early and get trimmed up before the break, even though thats not the right thing to do, because I cnt trim to AoA fast enough on downwind, that may help

[David OC]

It helps if you get your flaps and gear out early and get trimmed up before the break, even though thats not the right thing to do, because I cnt trim to AoA fast enough on downwind, that may help

 

If your having trouble on the down wind setup, then extend the break further from the bow of the carrier, the lead pilot (Most experienced) in the formation will break at the bow, the others each in turn will do a 10 second count then break. Try waiting till at least 1 mile from the bow using TACAN for the distance.

 

Practice hitting the first 90 degrees with 250 kts of speed to drop flaps and gear (Make sure you are HOLDING the speed brake to deploy completely in this G turn) This 1% of speed in G's is very important so you hit this 1st mark point. Once there at the 1st 90 at 250 kts, I soften the bank back to 30 degrees and hold this until on the downwind, this 30 degree bank is more controllable while trimming for on speed once the E bracket appears.

 

[Fakum]

I am still struggling with this myself. Forget about trying to control my break turns etc, I am just dropping my gear and running full flaps and trimming out my ONSPEED just fine, at which point i am trying to keep a level altitude. I am fighting the vertical speed + or -. I find with just a touch of the throttle either way, the beast goes wild on me. I tried masking some curves to make it so I get some manageable travel on the throttle, but to no avail. If any of you have been successful in creating a manageable curve ( I realize the physical characteristics will likely be different), I would be very interested in what you have set. thank you.

[Sparky1b09]

It helps if you get your flaps and gear out early and get trimmed up before the break, even though thats not the right thing to do, because I cnt trim to AoA fast enough on downwind, that may help

 

Russhin, there’s nothing wrong with the way you’re doing it. I did the same thing, dropping gear and flaps before the break, and trimming out. It does lower your work load in the downwind. After I became comfortable with flying and landing that way I started doing it by the book and knowing how the aircraft was going to behave was a huge help. So just keep doing what you’re doing now and when your skills improve, and they will, you can start doing it more by the book. Like the others have said, the more you practice the better you will become. Happy landings buddy.

[Tinkickef]

Glad it's not just me having this problem. I do find the Hornet a real handful with full flaps.

 

I recall Lex commenting that this behaviour is not correct.

[Flamin_Squirrel]

I think it was David_OC that posted a really interesting piece about how the plane handles in the approach configuration.

 

 

The plane is supposed to hold trimmed AoA. The FCS plays a part in this, but apparently when onspeed, the plane's natural stability provides this on its own and FCS doesn't interfere. Currently though, the FCS does indeed interfere; this is observed by the velocity vector being tightly tied to the E bracket. This prevents fine control of flight path; because AoA cannot change on its own, it has to wait for pitch to change with it and this leads to the tendency to overcontrol.

 

 

That said, even if this is corrected, I wouldn't expect huge differences. The underlying technique remains the same, and I can only see the benefit being those tiny corrections required when in close.

[Fakum]

My AOA hold just fine once trimmed, with just a smidge of throttle change I would be hunting between say -1500 to + 1500. I spent alot of time last night working a curve on the throttle, I certainly made some manageable improvements. Much better now, I just hate to have a curve set on my throttle.

[danny875]

They don't actually do a field arrestment, it would tear up the airplanes. They just ride the approach through a touch and go or roll out to a stop.

 

Interesting, I would have thought that a less tensioned cable would be used to train for an arrested stop....

Edited July 2, 2018 by danny875
Grammatical

[bradleyjs]

An excerpt from a RL F/A-18C Hornet driver (Kevin Miller) from his book Raven One:

 

“Four-zero-six,” Sponge acknowledged as he slapped the gear handle down and moved the flap switch to half. The aircraft ballooned with the increased lift, and the landing gear caused a dull roar behind him as it extended into the airstream. He countered the increased lift with a nose down bunt and retrimmed the aircraft. He tried to concentrate on flying the airplane so he would not think about the barricade.