Can someone explain how the RB04 works?

[imacken]

I know I'm missing something fundamental here, so be gentle!

 

I just don't get how this missile works on ships in terms of targeting. I mean, take the training mission for example. There are 3 ships, and here is what happens with me.

 

I set the missiles to single target and imperial, targets in range, I'm at the right height (around 400m), fire one missile, then a few seconds later, I fire another.

 

Various things then happen, sometimes

- both head to same target and sink ship

- the 2nd diverts to the 2nd ship if the first one is hit by the first missile

- the 2nd missile heads towards a different target to the first right from launch

- they miss one target completely, and sometimes they both miss all targets and go on their merry way onwards.

 

What am I misunderstanding here?

[Horns]

I know I'm missing something fundamental here, so be gentle!

 

I just don't get how this missile works on ships in terms of targeting. I mean, take the training mission for example. There are 3 ships, and here is what happens with me.

 

I set the missiles to single target and imperial, targets in range, I'm at the right height (around 400m), fire one missile, then a few seconds later, I fire another.

 

Various things then happen, sometimes

- both head to same target and sink ship

- the 2nd diverts to the 2nd ship if the first one is hit by the first missile

- the 2nd missile heads towards a different target to the first right from launch

- they miss one target completely, and sometimes they both miss all targets and go on their merry way onwards.

 

What am I misunderstanding here?

 

I think the selector should be on "group" to make sure they head for separate targets if that is what you want them to do. Also, a few times I made the mistake of not pitching down enough when I fired, and it seemed like the missiles overflew the targets and went on their wayrather than heading for them. Others may have more valuable input, and Cobra847 would be the authority on RB04 targeting logic.

Edited July 29, 2018 by Horns
Identified my own assumption

[imacken]

I think the selector should be on "group" to make sure they head for separate targets if that is what you want them to do. Also, a few times I made the mistake of not pitching down enough when I fired, and it seemed like the missiles overflew the targets and went on their wayrather than heading for them. Others may have more valuable input, and Cobra847 would be the authority on RB04 targeting logic.

 

Thanks, but I've tried setting to group. Doesn't seem to make any difference. (In the mission the instructor says it should be set to single).

My understanding - which could well be wrong - from looking at the manual, is that groups need to be in rows for that setting to work.

I just seem to get random outcomes from firing 2 missiles.

[Horns]

Thanks, but I've tried setting to group. Doesn't seem to make any difference. (In the mission the instructor says it should be set to single).

My understanding - which could well be wrong - from looking at the manual, is that groups need to be in rows for that setting to work.

I just seem to get random outcomes from firing 2 missiles.

 

Apologies, you are correct on both counts, the manual does appear to suggest that the ships need to be one behind the other to be detected as a group. Tbh I always used single anyway because I found it tough to judge if ships were within 2700m anyhow.

 

Hope someone can give you some useful info.

[QuiGon]

There are different settings for how the group mode works. They have to be set by the ground crew on the missile itself. In DCS this can be done by the mission creator in the mission editor under the special options tab of the Viggen. Take a look at that and it should give you a better understanding on how this works ;)

 

Edit: Best thing to do is to just take a look at the Viggen manual (pages 325 & 326) which explains pretty well how the different group modes of the RB04 work. It even has pretty pictures to illustrate it!

Edited July 29, 2018 by QuiGon

[imacken]

Thanks for that. I have looked at the manual on various occasions, but cannot get an explanation for the behaviour I am seeing as in post #1. Nothing to do with group mode.

[QuiGon]

Thanks for that. I have looked at the manual on various occasions, but cannot get an explanation for the behaviour I am seeing as in post #1. Nothing to do with group mode.

In Single Target Mode ("ENKEL") the missile should just go for the first contact it detects.

[Horns]

Thanks for that. I have looked at the manual on various occasions, but cannot get an explanation for the behaviour I am seeing as in post #1. Nothing to do with group mode.

 

I have had pretty consistent results with the RB 04, but I usually launch them from 50 - 100m radar altitude. I know you’re within the specified altitude range at 40m, but maybe if you try releasing them from lower you’ll get different results that might help explain what’s going on now.

[imacken]

In Single Target Mode ("ENKEL") the missile should just go for the first contact it detects.

 

Thanks again, but can you read my first post? I am in Single mode and getting spurious results.

[QuiGon]

Thanks again, but can you read my first post? I am in Single mode and getting spurious results.

Yes, but I don't know what happens there, but I've never experienced something like that. So far they always went for the first target straight ahead for me.

[FanOfALF]

I know I'm missing something fundamental here, so be gentle!

 

I just don't get how this missile works on ships in terms of targeting. I mean, take the training mission for example. There are 3 ships, and here is what happens with me.

 

I set the missiles to single target and imperial, targets in range, I'm at the right height (around 400m), fire one missile, then a few seconds later, I fire another.

 

Various things then happen, sometimes

- both head to same target and sink ship

- the 2nd diverts to the 2nd ship if the first one is hit by the first missile

- the 2nd missile heads towards a different target to the first right from launch

- they miss one target completely, and sometimes they both miss all targets and go on their merry way onwards.

 

What am I misunderstanding here?

 

I have experienced same thing, but I think it's no bug. The Rb04 isn't a hightech (like todays missiles) missile. I'm not a expert, but as I understand the Rb04 in single mode search targets all by itself. In single mode the 2:nd missile can either lock on the same ship as the first missile or go for another ship. It's kind of random. As others suggest, you might try to release the missiles at lower altitude and see to that alla other perimeters are set before release.

[Kozality]

I have experienced same thing, but I think it's no bug. The Rb04 isn't a hightech (like todays missiles) missile. I'm not a expert, but as I understand the Rb04 in single mode search targets all by itself. In single mode the 2:nd missile can either lock on the same ship as the first missile or go for another ship. It's kind of random. As others suggest, you might try to release the missiles at lower altitude and see to that alla other perimeters are set before release.

As I understand it, that's correct. There's two main things to understand about the Rb04 and to an extent, the Rb15:

 

 

- The missiles have no ability to identify a target. That is, a radar return is a radar return.

- There is no communication between missiles. Each one acts independently of the other.

 

 

So with regards to launching the Rb04, there's no randomness imparted in single target mode. But since the missiles are dropped one after the other, the missiles are fired under slightly different conditions. Against a single target, chances are that they'll both a acquire the same radar return, but against multiple, it's up to the conditions at the time of launch as to which, if any, are acquired.

 

 

So yeah. That's pretty much it. As FanOfALF said, it isn't a high-tech missile, as it was designed in the 60s. Target identification is still an issue, there was no real way to tell one ship type from another, so the launch parameters were tuned to raise the chance of hitting the right target based on it's relation to others. The Rb15 actually has many of the same limitations, its varied options give the platform more variables to tune based on where the target is and it's relation to other contacts present, with the seeker tuned to maximize the chance that you'll lock onto the one you want. But once the missile is away, be it the 04 or 15, it's all up to who or what strays into the seeker path first at the moment it goes active when in single mode.

 

 

Hope this helps!

[imacken]

Guys, thanks for all your help here. However, I am still not convinced this is working correctly. Take the training mission again, I can fire first missile and it heads toward first ship, I then turn toward and re-sight on 3rd ship which is significantly distant from the first, and quite often, the 2nd missile will divert away from the 3rd ship and head towards the 1st ship.

On quite a few occasions, both missiles will miss all ships.

Not convinced this is working correctly.

[FanOfALF]

Guys, thanks for all your help here. However, I am still not convinced this is working correctly. Take the training mission again, I can fire first missile and it heads toward first ship, I then turn toward and re-sight on 3rd ship which is significantly distant from the first, and quite often, the 2nd missile will divert away from the 3rd ship and head towards the 1st ship.

On quite a few occasions, both missiles will miss all ships.

Not convinced this is working correctly.

 

It might be a problem. I depends on what target/ship the missile detects first. I don't think it matters if you point towards another ship, if the missile detects the first ship it will go for that. Don't know how far between it must be not to detect the first ship. But again, I'm not an expert. :)

 

Hopefully any of the devs vill reply on this.

[unipus]

I guess the question would be what's the angle on the seeker cone of the missile's radar, and does it weight towards the middle, or just closest, or...?

[MustanGrande]

Note that (to my knowledge) the missiles don't talk to each other. The RB-04 basically homes in on whatever it detects ahead of it, and you have very little control over which radar contact it chooses.

 

Granted, there are presets to try and encourage them to spread out, but it's always possible that they'll pick the same ship.

 

If they miss completely, then something has probably gone wrong. Most likely, the ship has traveled outside of the missile's search cone.

 

 

 

Really, the best way to make sure your missiles don't home in on the same ship is to launch, peel away, and then re-attack after the first target has been sunk.

[thrustvector]

that's usually the way I do it, as I don't want to hit the same ship twice, and I come in v low, then launch, they are a random acquire missile so you need to be smart for them :)

[thrustvector]

just to check I just re flew it for you, I always launch at 100, no higher, 5 seconds interval, making sure the ships are well within the target circles, 3 out of 3 missions, both missiles head for lead ship, as its destroyed by the first missile, the 5 second interval gives the second one time to turn and hit the second ship.

that's the same result continually, but I always fly low, in missions right to the deck then popup to 50

[MustanGrande]

just to check I just re flew it for you, I always launch at 100, no higher, 5 seconds interval, making sure the ships are well within the target circles, 3 out of 3 missions, both missiles head for lead ship, as its destroyed by the first missile, the 5 second interval gives the second one time to turn and hit the second ship.

that's the same result continually, but I always fly low, in missions right to the deck then popup to 50

 

I'm not sure the target circle is really that crucial on the RB-04 beyond range indications in the HUD. In most cases, provided the WP is "close enough," I'll just line the contacts up along the radar's centerline and fire. To my knowledge, there's no targeting data being delivered to the missile itself.

[imacken]

just to check I just re flew it for you, I always launch at 100, no higher, 5 seconds interval, making sure the ships are well within the target circles, 3 out of 3 missions, both missiles head for lead ship, as its destroyed by the first missile, the 5 second interval gives the second one time to turn and hit the second ship.

that's the same result continually, but I always fly low, in missions right to the deck then popup to 50

Good technique that. Delaying for 5-10 seconds before releasing the 2nd missile does seem to make it divert after the 1st hits. Thanks for that. I’ll experiment a bit more later.

[thrustvector]

no problem, glad to help :)