Case III Chasing the Needles

[Arbil]

Any tips or insights into this? Specifically the line up, vertical needle. I always find myself chasing it and can never keep it stable in the middle. If I had to rely on only the needles I would never be able to put it on the deck.

[Shack]

When established on the approach, for any small deviations - bracket your target hdg by making very small corrections ( within 5 degrees either side of the final bearing course).

 

For descent angle, put the VV between 0 and 5 degrees on the pitch ladder. That will give you an approximate 3 degree angle and you can play it from there. Do not make large corrections or you will overshoot. Good luck !

 

 

 

Edited July 30, 2018 by Shack

[BSS_Sniper]

I’d use descent rate over pitch to initially track the glide slope. Forget about pitch

[TonyG]

I’d use descent rate over pitch to initially track the glide slope. Forget about pitch

 

This. Every other carrier approach, descent rate is handled via power, why would you try and use pitch at night?

 

You can switch the tacan back into heading mode to give yourself a visual of the heading direct to the carrier in the HUD to assist with situational awareness of your final approach heading.

[David OC]

Any tips or insights into this? Specifically the line up, vertical needle. I always find myself chasing it and can never keep it stable in the middle. If I had to rely on only the needles I would never be able to put it on the deck.

 

You shouldn't chase the vertical needle, you should be at 1,200-foot altitude and correct for line up (Ship is moving to the right, wind should be close to runway heading hopefully), then wait for the 3-mile DME fix at 1,200-foot altitude. The vertical needle will come down to you, when it does you follow it down, at the same time you will be also getting close to seeing the ball / ship, then 3/4 mile call ball. The 3 mile at 1200 feet sets you up for the 3 degree glide slope.

 

The double bars above and below 1200 means you need to stay at this height during the approach from 10 miles to 3 miles.

 

[Druid_]

In the Hornet, the needles are not flight directors, they are deviation indicators. There is a big difference between the 2. For flight director bars you would simply place your velocity vector (VV) on the bars and follow - easy huh. However, for deviation indicators you must put them in the correct position by 'pushing' them into the desired position.

 

1. For correct glidepath you do the following.

a. at intercept follow the horizontal needle/bar down to around 3 degrees. Then wait.

b. If needle falls below your VV towards say -4 degrees of pitch then you lower your VV to around -5 degrees and 'push' it back up to -3. Follow it up but just underneath to continue the push. When it's at ~-3 degrees place VV over needle to maintain the correct glideslope.

c. If needle starts to climb upwards away from your ideal glideslope then place your VV above it to 'push' it back down then use a similar technique as for b. above.

[Note I've said 3 degrees but the exact angle depends on what the carrier has set and its forward speed]

 

2. For correct localiser (lateral course) it's a little more complex as you have no definite reference (e.g. 3 degrees for glideslope). However, if you know the carriers BRC then you know the runways heading. Use the Tacan indicator on your HUD as a point of reference for knowing what heading to fly to 'push' your vertical localiser needle left or right to maintain the runway centreline.

 

Other tips.

a. Smooth small movements when adjusting.

b. Wait for adjustment to start taking affect then adjust as necessary to maintain or decrease needle movement by placing VV closer to the needle. DO NOT chase needles.

c. Put your ADI on a MFD as right now deviation bars are easier to see on it and small deviations are easier to see (will change as HUD needles are improved).

d. Tune the ships tacan. If it helps with situational awareness put HSI on other mfd and slew course line to runway heading (BRC minus 9). REMEMEBER the runway is moving so your aircrafts heading should always be slightly to the right (starboard) of the runway heading to maintain the centreline. (think of it as a crosswind from the right).

f. Set your rad alt alarm to 270 & if you don't have the OLS and centreline lights in sight then wave off.

g. Note, as you get closer to the ship the needles become more sensitive as small changes in deviation from Rwy centreline or correct glidepath are realised as larger angles. I.e. 50ft right off the centreline at 3nm is 0.16 degrees angle offset R of runway heading whereas at 0.3nm it is 1.6 degrees. This results in a far bigger right deviation on the vertical indicator. How this translates to you as the pilot is simply this, the closer you are to the runway the smaller your adjustments need to be to push the needles into the correct place. So for point 1. you would lower to just under 4 degrees and not 5 to push needle up when close to runway.

 

Lastly, practice your instrument scan. It's easy when starting out to get transfixed on adjusting one thing only to lose control of another. My scan involves 90% HUD and 10% ADI. Priority over maintaining heading and rate of descent, heading in relation to tacan bar at top of HUD (Rwy heading) then rate of descent to maintain correct or adjusted pitch. Next is deviation needles position and movement followed by an occasional glance at 1. Tacan range so I can adjust my range of adjustments as I get closer & 2. Altitude.

 

Here are a couple of ICLS's I did when testing ICLS. I would add there are 2 issues affecting flying accurate ICLS right now (as of 30 July). Firstly, the DCS hornet in approach mode (PAM) has negative roll stability (should be neutral to positive) and the ICLS bars are too small with possibly originating localiser beam offset too far right (still evaluating).

 

 

 

IMHO Mastering case3 is a great way to improve your case1 & 2 approaches.

Edited July 30, 2018 by Druid_

[Manuel_108]

Nice write up, thank you.

[Victory205]

Well said Druid.

 

It helps to be familiar with the basics of flying an ILS.

 

Heading controls localizer deviation and tracking, power controls rate of descent, which in turn, controls glideslope deviation and tracking.

 

Spend some time ascertaining the pitch attitude and power setting for the descent rate that will keep you on glide path. In most jets, pilots reference fuel flow to set power for instrument, pattern work, etc, so I usually have the "ENG" display up on one of the displays. It's tough in a sim to use throttle position, for obvious reasons, so FF works well enough.

 

Your rate of descent, will be around "1/2 the groundspeed x 10". So, if you are doing 140 knots, then try 700 fpm for a three degree GS, which is more or less the effective GS angle with the ship moving away. You need to know the pitch and power for this rate of descent. Airspeed, or more accurately, Angle of Attack, should be removed as a variable by trimming carefully to on speed.

 

That's the base or reference performance setting. If you are on GS, and your VSI increases beyond that, don't wait to see needle deviation, add power to bring the VSI back to the value that was holding you on GS under the existing conditions. If you are high or low, then adjust power to steepen or shallow your approach, as you approach on GS, then go back to your reference pitch attitude and power setting just before you arrive right on GS. Anticipating keeps you from going through and chasing the needles. While flying the instrument portion, use both hands to make quicker adjustments in pitch, the stick and throttles together, but trim should be your friend for remaining on speed.

 

Heading at the ship, depends upon if the ship is making it's own wind resulting in axial winds, or if it has the wind down the angle due to existing natural winds. Generally, you will need 2-3 degrees of right crab to account for the movement of the boat, even with wind perfectly down the angle. Know the BRC, and hold a heading 2-3 to the right of that. Having the HSI up may help.

 

Same idea. IF the ILS Localizer drifts right, you'll need to go to a heading 4-5 degrees to the right of the BRC. As the needle nears center, then bank to return to the BRC plus 2-3 degrees, whatever you have determined works as a baseline.

 

As you get closer to the boat, the angles get smaller for a given deviation, so your correction should be smaller as well. Fly the needles as long a possible, then inside outside, then outside as you pick up enough visual references to control deviations.

 

The biggest help for flying an ILS, whether you are in a light aircraft, a carrier jet, or landing on the moon, is to know the performance settings for the rate of descent required to hold the glidepath. From there, it's small corrections with power and pitch as described. Heading controls localizer as described.

 

A good start due to strong instrument skills is critical at night. Have fun!

Edited July 30, 2018 by Victory205

[FZG_Immel]

In the Hornet, the needles are not flight directors, they are deviation indicators. There is a big difference between the 2. For flight director bars you would simply place your velocity vector (VV) on the bars and follow - easy huh. However, for deviation indicators you must put them in the correct position by 'pushing' them into the desired position.

 

1. For correct glidepath you do the following.

a. at intercept follow the horizontal needle/bar down to around 3 degrees. Then wait.

b. If needle falls below your VV towards say -4 degrees of pitch then you lower your VV to around -5 degrees and 'push' it back up to -3. Follow it up but just underneath to continue the push. When it's at ~-3 degrees place VV over needle to maintain the correct glideslope.

c. If needle starts to climb upwards away from your ideal glideslope then place your VV above it to 'push' it back down then use a similar technique as for b. above.

[Note I've said 3 degrees but the exact angle depends on what the carrier has set and its forward speed]

 

2. For correct localiser (lateral course) it's a little more complex as you have no definite reference (e.g. 3 degrees for glideslope). However, if you know the carriers BRC then you know the runways heading. Use the Tacan indicator on your HUD as a point of reference for knowing what heading to fly to 'push' your vertical localiser needle left or right to maintain the runway centreline.

 

Other tips.

a. Smooth small movements when adjusting.

b. Wait for adjustment to start taking affect then adjust as necessary to maintain or decrease needle movement by placing VV closer to the needle. DO NOT chase needles.

c. Put your ADI on a MFD as right now deviation bars are easier to see on it and small deviations are easier to see (will change as HUD needles are improved).

d. Tune the ships tacan. If it helps with situational awareness put HSI on other mfd and slew course line to runway heading (BRC minus 9). REMEMEBER the runway is moving so your aircrafts heading should always be slightly to the right (starboard) of the runway heading to maintain the centreline. (think of it as a crosswind from the right).

f. Set your rad alt alarm to 270 & if you don't have the OLS and centreline lights in sight then wave off.

g. Note, as you get closer to the ship the needles become more sensitive as small changes in deviation from Rwy centreline or correct glidepath are realised as larger angles. I.e. 50ft right off the centreline at 3nm is 0.16 degrees angle offset R of runway heading whereas at 0.3nm it is 1.6 degrees. This results in a far bigger right deviation on the vertical indicator. How this translates to you as the pilot is simply this, the closer you are to the runway the smaller your adjustments need to be to push the needles into the correct place. So for point 1. you would lower to just under 4 degrees and not 5 to push needle up when close to runway.

 

Lastly, practice your instrument scan. It's easy when starting out to get transfixed on adjusting one thing only to lose control of another. My scan involves 90% HUD and 10% ADI. Priority over maintaining heading and rate of descent, heading in relation to tacan bar at top of HUD (Rwy heading) then rate of descent to maintain correct or adjusted pitch. Next is deviation needles position and movement followed by an occasional glance at 1. Tacan range so I can adjust my range of adjustments as I get closer & 2. Altitude.

 

Here are a couple of ICLS's I did when testing ICLS. I would add there are 2 issues affecting flying accurate ICLS right now (as of 30 July). Firstly, the DCS hornet in approach mode (PAM) has negative roll stability (should be neutral to positive) and the ICLS bars are too small with possibly originating localiser beam offset too far right (still evaluating).

 

 

 

IMHO Mastering case3 is a great way to improve your case1 & 2 approaches.

 

druid, how do you get this fog.

 

I have done a mission with a 270m visibility in fog and managed to land thanks to the ICLS, but I cannot see the light progresssively like yours.. it's like NOTHING before before 270m and everything after.

 

[Druid_]

I think I used a combination of lowest cloudbase and 1400ft visibility & 14 turbulence. The light is wake in one of the builds and not correct. The second video is more accurate in the most recent beta version but could do with some wake visible prior to landing. Vertical visibility in fog is different to horizontal visibility. It's been reported.

 

IRL you wouldn't be doing a manual ICLS approach with much less than 500m of visibility.

Edited August 1, 2018 by Druid_

[FZG_Immel]

I think I used a combination of lowest cloudbase and 1400ft visibility. The light is wake in one of the builds and not correct. The second video is more accurate in the most recent beta version but could do with some wake visible prior to landing. Vertical visibility in fog is different to horizontal visibility. It's been reported.

 

IRL you wouldn't be doing a manual ICLS approach with much less than 500m of visibility.

 

thanks a lot. I tried these settings and it worked not too bad.

 

fog is indeed tricky. Especially by day, when the carrier wont turn runway lights on.

[deltaleader]

Hey I don't know if anyone has noticed or not. But the Glide Slope is not implemented correctly. If the carrier is pitching, you will notice the glide slope pitching as well. It should not do that according to RL pilots. It should be stabilized with the ball and lens.

[maxTRX]

Hey I don't know if anyone has noticed or not. But the Glide Slope is not implemented correctly. If the carrier is pitching, you will notice the glide slope pitching as well. It should not do that according to RL pilots. It should be stabilized with the ball and lens.

 

I started a thread in Bugs section, I think it's on page 2 now... I'm not sure how bugs reporting works here. Do the devs read the Bugs forum or the subject gets reviewed by mods/experts before it gets reported... don't know.

[Victory205]

Correct, The IFLOLS and the slope and course transmitters are gyrostabilized.

 

 

Within certain limits. If they are exceeded, LSO’s go to MOVLAS and things get interesting.

[Delareon]

Do i need to setup something special in MissionEditor to get the ICLS running?

Or Maybe i have to recreate the whole Mission?

 

I have a Mission (created prior the last patch) with Stennis and some targets.

But i didnt get an ILS needle when i approach with channel 11 active.

Tacan works and its with perfect visibility so i can visually check if im on course.

I want to check out the needles before i turn out the lights ;)

[HawkDCS]

The biggest thing I learned about instrument approaches from my IFR training is to never chase, average the needles out and merge onto them like you are merging onto the highway from an onramp. Once you start chasing you're basically kicking your own ass the entire way down.

 

This.

 

Its still pretty beta this module and true CASE III has a long ways to go.

[Arbil]

In Druid's second video, the ship having the deck edge lights and the island being lit up when he get's to about a mile out, is that something I should be seeing? My ship has no lights on. I only see the OLS. Trying to land with 1300ft visibility and the island being completely dark is terrifying.

[sopebird]

I noticed that both the slope and course indications on HUD during CASE3 landing are not accurately modeled. In real world, both lines are much longer, which makes it easier to align.

Look at the video:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VIZrZidInYM

[Druid_]

You need to call ATC for inbound.

 

This is something that will hopefully change and will be based purely on time of day, cloudbase and visibility rather than an ATC call.

[Arbil]

You need to call ATC for inbound.

 

I definitely do call ATC for inbound. I still get no lights during the day. I just went and double checked to be sure, made a new mission in the editor from scratch. I do get the runway lights lit up when I call in ATC at night (or dusk etc) but nothing when it's during the day and low vis like in Druid's video. ??

[Arbil]

Here is the new mission I made.

Cauc_LowVisRainCaseIIIPractice.miz