Taking off with a full complement of Phoenix missiles?

[Nexus-6]

Irrespective of the math presented (not sure I agree with it, but I'm not a PhD in physics like some of our coders); I'll give you the practical perspective from using the new AIM-54.

 

Truth be told, the Heatblur AIM-54 is less capable than the real missile. While it performs very close to benchmarks, it has an artificially low G-limiter to improve loft performance. This is spelled out in the Phoenix "white paper" that Cobra posted a while back.

 

In spite of this modest handicap, the AIM-54 is perhaps the most effective anti-fighter missiles in DCS. Inside of 10 nm, it will hit PvP players about 90% of the time during testing (when the targeted player actually knows exactly where the Tomcat is and is trying to evade). One of our testers is a highly experienced 104th player and is yet to find an effective or consistent counter for it. He still ascribes most misses to luck.

 

Here is a general breakdown of what you can expect when employing it against fighters:

 

Against fighter AI (MiG-29s and Su-27s), you can expect that launches around 30 nm distance will destroy the opponent about 75% of the time. You can expect similar against player opponents with less than optimal SA or not much experience. Against those aware of the missile and familiar with tactics, kill rates probably drop to about 25%.

 

At 15 nm, expect that about 50% of proficient players will be able to evade if aware.

 

At 10 nm, evading is quite difficult and the vast majority of missiles will score hits against even experienced players with good SA. Between the rocket's power and warhead, it is simply deadly!

 

So the idea of shooting down a reasonably aware player at 60 nm is fiction imho. But you can reliably hit fighter targets by 30 nm and the odds steadily rise as the distance closes.

 

Also, there is a very handy ACM mode for the missile. Once selected, the missile can simply be boresighted against targets at closer than 10 nm and the missile comes off the rail within a second of pressing the trigger (vs 3 seconds for a conventional launch). You don't need a radar lock, just pull the trigger and it finds the target quite reliably. The motor will also still be burning when it finds its target, so it has plenty of energy to chase and torment.

 

So the AIM-54 will bring a lot of value to the fight and complement the Tomcat's outstanding overall capabilities. Make no mistake, the F-14 is simply a A-A killer that can stand up to anything in DCS at either BVR or WVR.

 

You'll see soon.....

 

-Nick

I can hardly wait. The hair-pulling and screaming this is going to generate will be indescribable.

 

 

Large and heavy doesn't necessarily equal useless.

[Flamin_Squirrel]

EDIT (just because i'm in the mood for drawing tonight)

In the example above, if the target plane starts notching at mach 1.4, the missile will not be able to make the intercept, right?

 

Your drawing is wrong. Whether the target was on the course shown or has turned 90 degrees from straight to side on, the missile would already have corrected and would not be pointing straight at the target.

[GGTharos]

The hair-pulling and screaming of watching all 54s miss inside 10nm is going to be equally entertaining.

 

The 54 is a big, slow to accelerate missile with a long burn time and relatively low maneuverability. You have time to deal with it if you know what you're doing.

[OnlyforDCS]

The hair-pulling and screaming of watching all 54s miss inside 10nm is going to be equally entertaining.

 

The 54 is a big, slow to accelerate missile with a long burn time and relatively low maneuverability. You have time to deal with it if you know what you're doing.

 

I'd say the bolded part is only half of the "equation". Once people get experienced in the Tomcat, and some really great dedicated pilot-rio crews are formed, the other half of the equation will emerge. ;)

 

So yeah, I expect a lot o hair-pulling and screaming all round, until we have dedicated, experienced Tomcat crews who know what they are doing and how to use the Phoenix to it's maximum potential.

 

In any case thanks to Blacklion for coming in and giving us a few practical examples of using the Phoenix, while we wait to try it ourselves. I apologize to anyone for stepping on their egos in this thread, I did have a big part in derailing it myself but then again my own ego just can't stand idly by and watch can it?

Edited December 21, 2018 by OnlyforDCS

[Nexus-6]

True, people tend to believe that it's either the zenith of missile technology...or that it's useless against anything that isn't a Tu-95.

 

Also, if you're going to wait and shoot a Phoenix inside of 10 miles then you wasted not only your time but all the extra gas to lug it there when you should have just been slinging Sparrows all along.

 

As I said, I can hardly wait for the insane rants of "Tomcat and Phoenix are OP" for the people that made the error of underestimating it as well as "Heatblur raped my childhood" for the people that can't understand why they aren't steamrolling everything out to 100 miles off their nose.

 

Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk

[Bad Idea Hat]

The Heatblur testing in their paper said that, against AI, they were taking shots at between 30 and 50 nautical miles with a good success rate. Irrespective of what a human opponent would do, that's a tough missile to beat.

[OnlyforDCS]

Also, if you're going to wait and shoot a Phoenix inside of 10 miles...

 

I'd even go so far as to say that if you're shooting a Phoenix inside 10nm you're doing it wrong, unless we are talking about a tail chase of some sort or some sort of press on an opponent who is in a really bad position. Id say that 10-15nm will be the sweet spot against opponents who are aware of you, with longer shots to put them on the defensive. In any case even with much lower pk's at longer distances, with this kind of range just having the F14 pop up on their RWR will be enough for a good number of players to turn tail and run away.

[BlackLion213]

The hair-pulling and screaming of watching all 54s miss inside 10nm is going to be equally entertaining. You have time to deal with it if you know what you're doing.

 

Incorrect.

 

The hair-pulling and screaming of watching all 54s miss inside 10nm is going to be equally entertaining.

 

On the contrary, I expect a lot of eagle drivers to transform into the even more patriotic "bald eagle drivers" based on their own hair pulling. Of course, it will be about more than just the AIM-54....

 

-Nick

[Bad Idea Hat]

Incorrect.

 

 

 

On the contrary, I expect a lot of eagle drivers to transform into the even more patriotic "bald eagle drivers" based on their own hair pulling. Of course, it will be about more than just the AIM-54....

 

-Nick

 

 

See, a well placed shot at 10 miles is going to be tough, but what about the people who read the 10 mile comment and launch at 180 degrees from target and start screaming about "stupid nerfed Phoenix."

[GGTharos]

The only bald thing here is going to be that turkey being baked in the oven :)

 

On the contrary, I expect a lot of eagle drivers to transform into the even more patriotic "bald eagle drivers" based on their own hair pulling. Of course, it will be about more than just the AIM-54....

 

-Nick

[Coxy_99]

The only bald thing here is going to be that turkey being baked in the oven :)

 

ET to the face

[GGTharos]

Indeed a very common reason for a facepalm, in the sense of 'WTF how did I not see that coming' and 'Why did I just keep flying straight when I knew it was going to happen' followed by 'Why no flares bro?' :D

[Nexus-6]

The AIM-54 wasn't a wing tank, and it wasn't the finger of God. It's like just about everything else

Use it correctly, and you should enjoy at least a moderate amount of success.

 

Dismiss it, or overestimate it's potential, and you have a rude surprise coming.

 

Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk

[captain_dalan]

Your drawing is wrong. Whether the target was on the course shown or has turned 90 degrees from straight to side on, the missile would already have corrected and would not be pointing straight at the target.

Nah, don't think of it as a simulation, i would probably need math cad or something to do those curves. Rather, it was meant more like a first derivative of a turn. As in the displacement needed for the target to avoid the missile when delta t is approaching zero :thumbup:

[captain_dalan]

Incorrect.

 

 

 

On the contrary, I expect a lot of eagle drivers to transform into the even more patriotic "bald eagle drivers" based on their own hair pulling. Of course, it will be about more than just the AIM-54....

 

-Nick

 

The only bald thing here is going to be that turkey being baked in the oven :)

 

Now that's the good old inter service rivalry that i missed around here! :thumbup::happy:

[Dino Might]

Nah, don't think of it as a simulation, i would probably need math cad or something to do those curves. Rather, it was meant more like a first derivative of a turn. As in the displacement needed for the target to avoid the missile when delta t is approaching zero :thumbup:

 

Yes, you are getting at a relevant measure; however the analysis must be dynamic, most easily done as a time stepped function. Doing the static "bubble" calcs require the aircraft to achieve that lateral separation instantaneously, or for the missile to not move until that lateral separation (and angle off boresight) is achieved. This is not how the engagement will play out, because the missile will be adjusting velocity as the aircraft does. Neither the aircraft or the missile can achieve a new velocity without moving through the intervening ones.