Hornet dogfight handling

[jaguara5]

I have to ask some questions to improve my bfm performance

1) Other than the pirouette maneuver Matt demonstrated in one of his videos, are rudders used and when during a dogfight?

2) If I want to change 180 roll, like to perform a flat scissor, what is the most efficient way to do that? Should I unload the aircraft first and then quick roll in the opposite direction? Can I simultaneously roll and pitch up? (stick in the full aft right or left position)? Should I use rudders to support the roll ? In low speed, is there any difference if I roll only with the stick or if I use together rudder in the same direction?

3) What about (slow speed) rolling scissors? Is there any different handling required in comparison to flat? And what about throttle use? Should is use full AB constantly or does it help to cut it quickly to mil power during the reversal and then full AB?

4) If I want to perform a loop with a 360 - 380 kts (fuel ca 60%), what are the optimum g' s in each phase of the maneuver?

[Cik]

rudders are used to coordinate turns, but the FLCS does that automatically. in general, there probably isn't much use to rudder in a turn fight. generally speaking your roll authority is near unlimited so there is no real obstacle to rolling and then simply applying aft stick. i would expect that inputting hard rudder turns would be less energy efficient than simply putting in roll and pulling.

 

 

i would suspect that the best way is to just exit your turn, roll, enter a new turn. you can probably hold aft stick and roll at the same time, though i would expect that this is both 1. stressful to the aircraft and 2. not as energy efficient as just quickly rolling and pulling the stick. really though, the times you should actually reverse your turn like this in close combat.. i struggle to conjure a use case.

 

 

in scissors, dumping throttle is often useful as it is chiefly a contest of whoever reaches low speed first. generally though you won't want to dump it forever- you get down to near your corner and then enter full AB for energy maintenance. likewise, in horizontal scissors i usually actually extend brakes until i am down to 300-400 kn, otherwise my turning circle will be the radius of a small country and i am sure to lose.

 

 

optimum gs? uh, for what purpose? i mean, if your objective is to turn the quickest circle possible you can just yank the stick as hard as possible. "optimum" gs just depends on what you are actually trying to achieve- granted loops don't really achieve much(?) so perhaps you are thinking aerobatics and not combat.

[IvanK]

Rudder is one of the Hornets trump cards to get your nose going were you want it even the FCS uses it :)

 

 

Dont unload in a flat scissors ..... you will end up in front Yes especially High AOA use rudder prodigiously. Loaded reversals are the way to go.If it were me in Full burner.

 

 

 

Rolling scissors Aim to keep your lift vector behind the opponent, do what it takes to achieve that Rudder as well.

 

 

Looping from that sort of speed use whatever G you want into 12 alpha as you get slow.

 

 

You can loop an A model Hornet from 180KIAS .... just use 12 Alpha.

[Cik]

eh, i just don't see low-speed rudder turns as particularly decisive. useful for hammerhead and pirouettes, but with 9x you should basically enter WEZ at will. for legacy missiles, yoyo and nose-high out of planes are better to set up a shot than simply trying to nose-level rudder turn at people, IMO.

 

 

 

big ol' rudders give you some really bizarre edge of the envelope advantages, but in my strategy i never end up employing those anyway as they leave you too vulnerable (just imo) better to play a "fair & honest" ACM than to rely on tricks that will get you scooped by bandit #2 a lot of the time.

 

 

~opinions~

[IvanK]

""fair & honest" ACM" no such thing..... and we are talking BFM anyway :)

 

 

 

If you get close quarter to the point were you are genuinely scissoring (like in guns only environment) be it Horizontal or rolling its all about controlling forward vector in relation to the bandits forward vector, and your best tool for that is placement of the lift vector and max performing the jet. You use whatever tools are available to you .... and rudder in this environment can be a great friend.

[Cik]

guns only is it's own thing. i am specifically talking all-aspect, that is to say as soon as he passes in front of you, you win the fight odds-on.

 

 

that means that even getting below corner is probably not going to happen. hornet will come into the fight, ID his target and then one-circle to victory. the most extravagant move you should need is a nose high turn to drop speed, then do a pull into WEZ and shoot.

 

 

this is mostly an academic conversation simply because hornet rate is so good that you will simply obliterate most opponents with the simplest of level turns assuming you enter the fight at a reasonable speed for close combat and do not start the fight with him on your tail (granted i've won those too because lmaohornetalpha)

 

 

 

i would say, generally speaking don't screw around with the rudder unless you are doing a maneuver that specifically requires pilot-command input or you are for some reason do not have your lift vector aligned with the target's momentum and are trying to execute a snapshot. otherwise, just roll.

 

 

 

in WWII combat you end up using your rudder in combat alot more because your roll authority (especially at certain speeds) is quite bad. but in hornet it's virtually unlimited so why not roll instead?

 

 

 

like i said, opinions though. hornet wrecks everything else in close combat currently ingame without much effort.

[GGTharos]

Use rudder to roll in particular when in a high AOA situation and you're not willing to unload. Follow ivank's advice, he knows very well what he's talking about here.

 

The FBW may also be blending rudder automatically in those situations so you don't need to use the rudder by yourself but don't quote me on that as I haven't tested such a thing.

 

PS. I've snagged plenty of hornets with their aim9xs who entered the fight with good does in a level turn ... Not exactly the end all be all that it's being made out to be.

[maxTRX]

In my extensive Hornet/Rhino simming career the rudders got me out of defensive mess just about every time... who knows how FCS "converted" my rudder inputs into a whoop-ass maneuver but... it did:D and it's not just gunzo, some setups involved heaters too.

[M1Combat]

Rudders are your friends...

[Mover]

Rudder is one of the Hornets trump cards to get your nose going were you want it even the FCS uses it :)

 

 

Dont unload in a flat scissors ..... you will end up in front Yes especially High AOA use rudder prodigiously. Loaded reversals are the way to go.If it were me in Full burner.

 

 

 

Rolling scissors Aim to keep your lift vector behind the opponent, do what it takes to achieve that Rudder as well.

 

 

Looping from that sort of speed use whatever G you want into 12 alpha as you get slow.

 

 

You can loop an A model Hornet from 180KIAS .... just use 12 Alpha.

 

You sure about that number? Seems awfully low.

[IvanK]

What number 12 Alpha or 180kias ... either one is correct.

[Mover]

What number 12 Alpha or 180kias ... either one is correct.

 

12 Alpha won't cut it, especially if you're at 180 kts. Not sure where you're getting that number, but no RAG teaches that for the A-D.

[GGTharos]

He flew it.

 

 

 

Not sure where you're getting that number, but no RAG teaches that for the A-D.

[Mover]

He flew it.

 

Okay. It's still not a good number for over-the-top. Especially not at slow speed.

[IvanK]

Yes I know were you are coming from ref possible AOA Hang ups over the top etc. We (many moons ago) used to use it as confidence building type thing ... just how slow can you loop it type thing. The 12 Alpha is really the initial pull to the vertical, over the top the usual caveat to ensure positive pitch rate... lest the AOA hangup snare you.

[IvanK]

Here is track pretty much as I recall what was demoed to the Student then his turn. Ideally no more than 12 Alpha to the vertical then alpha as required to keep the nose moving over the top. Config Clean + 2 AIM9 which for us was the standard training OCU config.

F1812alphaloop.trk

[G B]

I think the confusion was that what you originally explained came across as a 12 alpha loop, vice the full explanation you just gave. In the US students get taught a 250 knot loop for similar reasons. Pull up at 1% of airspeed in G until intercepting 25 alpha, then reintercepting the G at the end.

Edited January 6, 2019 by G B
Fix

[Sting57]

I guess these sort of training sorties are generally classified? In an old virtual squadron I was apart of we used to have our new recruits go through the VIPER HART (Horn Awareness Response? Training) program. Was a great way to learn the flight characteristics of the A/C

 

Does have any one have these for the Hornet?

 

cheers

 

Mike

[atazar]

I have to ask some questions to improve my bfm performance

1) Other than the pirouette maneuver Matt demonstrated in one of his videos, are rudders used and when during a dogfight?

2) If I want to change 180 roll, like to perform a flat scissor, what is the most efficient way to do that? Should I unload the aircraft first and then quick roll in the opposite direction? Can I simultaneously roll and pitch up? (stick in the full aft right or left position)? Should I use rudders to support the roll ? In low speed, is there any difference if I roll only with the stick or if I use together rudder in the same direction?

3) What about (slow speed) rolling scissors? Is there any different handling required in comparison to flat? And what about throttle use? Should is use full AB constantly or does it help to cut it quickly to mil power during the reversal and then full AB?

4) If I want to perform a loop with a 360 - 380 kts (fuel ca 60%), what are the optimum g' s in each phase of the maneuver?

 

 

Jaguara5 you are one of the best rivals in Dog fight, sometimes you demoralize me =)

[G B]

I guess these sort of training sorties are generally classified? In an old virtual squadron I was apart of we used to have our new recruits go through the VIPER HART (Horn Awareness Response? Training) program. Was a great way to learn the flight characteristics of the A/C

 

Does have any one have these for the Hornet?

 

cheers

 

Mike

 

The maneuver I described was not classified.

[Mover]

I guess these sort of training sorties are generally classified? In an old virtual squadron I was apart of we used to have our new recruits go through the VIPER HART (Horn Awareness Response? Training) program. Was a great way to learn the flight characteristics of the A/C

 

Does have any one have these for the Hornet?

 

cheers

 

Mike

 

Are you talking about the F-16 High AOA training at Edwards?

[Sting57]

I don't beleive so. I am referring to the MCH 11-F16 v5 section 9.4

 

https://fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ac/docs/16v5.pdf

 

From page 239 onwards

Edited January 7, 2019 by Sting57