F-15 Aim 120 Lob shot does not work?

[markriley]

So Ubisoft dumps ED and then ED doesnt have the funds/backing to fix the current problems with the sim untill they can make some more income from Black Shark. Is that what has happened?

Lomac is overall the best sim graphicly (imo) out there, until fighter ops is finished. Im not really looking forward to spending another $30 for black shark to get some of the current issues fixed. That for me will be over $100 bucks spent on lockon (not including hardware) and I would expect some reprograming/codeing/tweaking or whatever is required to make the sim worth that price tag.

If ED cant afford to pay the programers then they could relase the code (or whatever its called) so the community can come up with fixes to the sim. That doesnt seem unreasonable to me. What would ED have to loose there, lockon isnt flying off the shelves really.

 

Not trying to piss off anybody or stir the stick, just pointing out what I understand of the situation and wondering if my perspective is anywhere near accurate. If not, please explain.

Thanks

[GGTharos]

Well, let's see ... the rights to Lock On are owned by Ubi I believe, who I'm sure is not interested in releasing the source tot he public - nor is ED, as that gives others a head start on say, writing their own sims!

 

If ED has resources available they'll do an FC patch, if not, then no. That's all there is to it.

[rogue_blade]

how big a team is ED?

[GGTharos]

Its big enough.

[D-Scythe]

how big a team is ED?

 

Not big enough to do a sim that satisfies everybody.

[cool_t]

I JUST DONT GET IT

 

So can any one answer my question?

 

whats the deal, I ask a question and almost 99% of replies have NOTHING TO DO WITH WHAT I ASKED ABOUT!!!

 

Also on another note I ALSO HAVE BEEN GIVIN WARNINGS FOR BEING OFF TOPIC IN SOME THREADS.

 

 

 

IS THERE A LIMIT TO THE ANGLE OF SHOOTING AN AIM120 LOB SHOT?????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

[markriley]

Well, let's see ... the rights to Lock On are owned by Ubi I believe, who I'm sure is not interested in releasing the source tot he public - nor is ED, as that gives others a head start on say, writing their own sims!

 

If ED has resources available they'll do an FC patch, if not, then no. That's all there is to it.

 

They dont have the resources available or they would have. This source code is a tweak of the Flanker sim series right? Any real changes that would fix things will require extinsive re-coding right?

If the source was so valuable then why did Ubi drop ED?

 

All Im saying is this, if ED has done all it can afford to do, they might consider supporting those who have supported them by releasing the aging source code to a handfull of die-hards who might could make the Game more Sim-like.

[S77th-GOYA]

Im wondering about the "gimbal" limitations reguardles of the 120s programing.

 

It should be able to see a target 60 degrees off-boresight.

[markriley]

So can any one answer my question?

 

whats the deal, I ask a question and almost 99% of replies have NOTHING TO DO WITH WHAT I ASKED ABOUT!!!

 

Also on another note I ALSO HAVE BEEN GIVIN WARNINGS FOR BEING OFF TOPIC IN SOME THREADS.

 

 

 

IS THERE A LIMIT TO THE ANGLE OF SHOOTING AN AIM120 LOB SHOT?????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

 

Dude, this is 2001-2002 Flanker (Russian) code tweaked for each different missile. ED has Black Shark on the plate and if the AA missles dont work right in a AA combat sim you just add a really kickass helocopter and no-one will care about the missles. Its less coding/resources to add a chopper or a really accurate Su-25t flight model than to fix the basics you see.

[D-Scythe]

IS THERE A LIMIT TO THE ANGLE OF SHOOTING AN AIM120 LOB SHOT?????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

 

Theoretically, no. Simply, the fighter uploads the target info to the missile prior to launch, so when fired, the missile calculates (and flies) an optimized flight path (by lofting) to the seeker activation point based on the data it has. If the data changes, the missile would simply readjust its flight path on the fly when it receives the updates from its datalink.

 

Lobbing the AMRAAM basically gives it a head start when it lofts - the missile wouldn't have to waste energy pitching up into a climb, because by being lobbed it's already climbing. Provided that the info needed to calculate the missile seeker activation point is being downloaded to the missile prior to launch, it really shouldn't matter what the launching fighter is doing. Since it's LOAL, missile gimbal limits aren't a problem, and since the missile calculates its own trajectory, the launching fighter doesn't play a big role except at the beginning of the launch when the missile inherits its speed, attitude and altitude.

 

Obviously, in real life, it works out differently - you can't be lobbing your AMRAAMs at 45 degree off boresight and expect it to perform just as well as a perfect lob shot, for example.

[markriley]

being sick of these missle threads doesnt solve the problem. If ED could have fixed it they would have.

Its not going to happen. These type threads are years old with no real resolution. Remember, its just a game.

[cool_t]

ahhhhhhhhhhhh

 

Nice,

 

Thank you for your profetional responce.

 

OK so to the second part of my question.

 

I was of line in my mission editor, and lobed 120s at a mig.

 

I was at at 45* angle and the missiles just went into space even with my radar in SST and active signature from the 120.

 

So another concern of mine is that when im at 45,000ft and im tracking a mig thats below me 15nm at 1,000ft the 120 has no problem tracking it.

the off-set angle is about the same as in the 45* angle loft shot.

 

I guess I just do not understand some of the limitations of the data link from the F-15 to the AIM 120.

 

I guess reducing the LOFT angle will help.

[D-Scythe]

So another concern of mine is that when im at 45,000ft and im tracking a mig thats below me 15nm at 1,000ft the 120 has no problem tracking it.

the off-set angle is about the same as in the 45* angle loft shot.

 

No, the offset angle is definitely not the same. SIN-1[(45000-1000)/(6076*15)] = 28.9 degrees, NOT 45 degrees.

 

Although pitching your F-15 up 45 degrees shouldn't be affecting your AMRAAMs upon launch. I'll look into it later.

[Kula66]

If ED has resources available they'll do an FC patch, if not, then no. That's all there is to it.

 

Now that the patch is being talked as 'if' rather than 'when' - what incentive have ED to do any patch? It will not pay the wages of those programmers who write it ... I'm sorry to say I think we are just stuck with 'arcade' missiles, until 'the next project' - perhaps my kids will get to play it one day ... I'm not holding my breadth.

 

But hey, ED have given me good value for my money - Ј60 has bought me many hours of fun! SO BIG THANKS ED!

[tflash]

Hey Cool_t, I'm not sure 45 degrees is the optimal angle. For a Javelin throw, 33 degrees is recommended. In theory 45 degrees is optimal, but there is lift and drag to include in the model.

 

I think you would already have a good loft effect starting with 25 degrees or so. Do you try this against bombers (what would be more logical) or fighters?

[GGTharos]

Find the original post by Wags ... it was always an 'if'. But, the ED guys really -do- want to do it. They're flight sim geeks too, and they understand the problems, and they don't like them. Again, it's a resourcing issue; their incentive? They want to at least fix the things they can.

 

You've seen the discussions about missiles, about F-15 thrust, etc ... ED is not deaf nor blind, they know about these issues and they want to fix'em. In general things that won't introduce new code I guess would be the most likely things to receive attention.

 

Now that the patch is being talked as 'if' rather than 'when' - what incentive have ED to do any patch? It will not pay the wages of those programmers who write it ... I'm sorry to say I think we are just stuck with 'arcade' missiles, until 'the next project' - perhaps my kids will get to play it one day ... I'm not holding my breadth.

 

But hey, ED have given me good value for my money - Ј60 has bought me many hours of fun! SO BIG THANKS ED!

[cool_t]

Nice thanks again

 

Perhaps we should just get a "SPECS" "LOCKED" thread that explanes the physics of all the missiles.

 

This would help with the "New Guys" that know "Declassified" information about the 120, R-77, ET, ect.

 

Maby Ice can help with some vid tracks; for instance last Sunday I was on the monster of a server (169th) and I tell you I was at 45,000ft and I had an SU-27 below me at 7,000ft at 10nm away from me. I was in SST mode and I released 2 120s and KAPOW the SU27 was no more.

 

So where is the differnce in offset angles, are you guys reading me now?

 

Look down shoot down, sure I know it very well, but perhaps I can mess with altitude and such. Its a shame though because alot of pilots mask and the air is so thick that a head on shot leaks all of the 120s power at low alt. Thats why I use the LOFT-LOB shot.

 

T:joystick:

[tflash]

Cool_t, I had good experiences with the lobster Amraam also. And in fact, off-line everything works textbook to me. I support GGtharos efforts to bring minor corrections that will enhance gameplay and realism, but in the mean time that does not prevent me to enjoy the game. Very much so.

 

PS di you still lob 45 degrees or have you tried 25-33 degrees also?

[rogue_blade]

Cool_t, I had good experiences with the lobster Amraam also. And in fact, off-line everything works textbook to me. I support GGtharos efforts to bring minor corrections that will enhance gameplay and realism, but in the mean time that does not prevent me to enjoy the game. Very much so.

 

PS di you still lob 45 degrees or have you tried 25-33 degrees also?

 

so whats better then?? because your saying lobbing helped while others say its no different or worse

[S77th-GOYA]

I was at 45,000ft and I had an SU-27 below me at 7,000ft at 10nm away from me. I was in SST mode and I released 2 120s and KAPOW the SU27 was no more.

 

So where is the differnce in offset angles, are you guys reading me now?

 

Maybe I'm not reading you, T. Are you expecting a lob shot at that range? Or if you are comparing it for off-boresight angle of a lob shot, it's not a good comparison. That shot will have the 120 traveling down immediately and a lob shot will have the 120 traveling up. So there will be a significant difference in seeker angle just because of the missile's aspect.

 

Or maybe I don't follow you?

 

Also, around 25nm is about as close as LOMAC will lob a 120. And only at high altitudes.

[cool_t]

Yepsters!

 

Yes ,

 

45,000ft level flight, then split S 90* at him, to make sure he was dead, look for leakers, and to avoid the SAM WEZ.

 

Well it reminds me of the time in 169th that I saw an ET do a 360* turn and hit its target; strange.

 

I guess set up mission editor and try the merging that I incountered. Remember he did not move much, I think he was fumbling in his cocpit or looking arround for me.

 

Thanks cali

 

GOYA,

 

Im comparing it to the LOFT-lob ofset angle, where 45* lOFT-lob shot at a 20nm bandit compared to the LOOK Down offset angle that I incountered in 169th. Im not understanding the physics, or why the 120 wont track in the LOFT where the distance and angles are less stressfull on the 120.

 

Rogue_blade,

 

I have had some good kills with the LOFT-lob shot at lower altitudes, I believe that when the 120 leaves the rail it encounters less paracidic drag

 

Forinstance- 120 launched at 5,000ft 25*, bandit at 20nm 5,000ft. Lets just say that the 120 reaches 15,000ft-peak-fulcrum(less drag,ect) then on the way down it also has the earths gravity influencing is rate of deceleration. Compared to the 120 head on shot pushing all of that heavy air at 5,000ft.

 

tflash,

 

Rgr that, I use it often when im "Feet Wet". Yes many different angles. But the problem is when im at 45* in SST with a bad guy and with the "Active" lights on the missile just goes into space. All of the telemitry data is there in the missile, but its like my girl friends Dog you tell it to SIT and it just runs as fast as it can in the wrong direction.:doh:

 

Also another good example is SAMs, depending on where in the SAM WEZ you are theres a good chance that the SAM will LOFT-lob at your jet.

 

Thanks again guys for you good thoughts,

 

T:joystick:

[S77th-GOYA]

T, I think 45 degrees is too much of an angle for your shot. Take a look at the attached Tacview file. It just doesn't loft that much and its a 28nm shot. The only trouble I've had with lofted 120s is losing lock/jamming bandit. And not enough people fly where you can actually use a lofted shot.

Lobshot.zip

[S77th-GOYA]

Forinstance- 120 launched at 5,000ft 25*, bandit at 20nm 5,000ft. Lets just say that the 120 reaches 15,000ft-peak-fulcrum(less drag,ect) then on the way down it also has the earths gravity influencing is rate of deceleration. Compared to the 120 head on shot pushing all of that heavy air at 5,000ft.

 

Are you sure that shot is actually lofting? Got track? Or Tacview?

[3Sqn_Fudd]

This is one of those things that one just needs to test and test and test... Cool_T, hit up 3Sqn Ventrilo if you'd like to go through some runs

... I have done some in the past with TomAce but think the results are not worth noting... Cheers

[cool_t]

Hey

 

Sorry about the late responce.

 

My good PC is still in the fixing process and im tweaking it yet so by this weekend i'll be back up in the air.

 

I'll hit your server this weekend, the :worthy: girlfriends Birthday is thursday and then she is going to visit her Dad for the rest of the week end so ill be, :drunk::beer:

 

I can remember flying in the server b 4, I was up against other eagles and it was a good chalange.

 

those 120s are like the lotery most of them miss but every once in a while you get a winner.

 

See ya,

T

 

P.S GOYA I need to put TACVIEW back on my PC. I'll be releasing some vids of me online soon im in the edditing process of some tracks, most of them were lost when the PC crashed.