Whats your tactics in dogfights against f18,27s,15s?

[mehksauce]

these 3 are probably the most common use air to air module, im really trying to improve on my dog fighting tactics/awareness and skill as a whole.. any tips and tricks are greatly appreciated!

 

 

 

certain situations that i suck at..

 

- having a bogey on my six.. how can stay defensive but slowly trying to be the guy thats behind you.

 

- i know a guy is behind this mountain, he doesn't know im here, how can i get the jump on him?

 

- im at advantage by being 5-8k altitude higher than him, we both see each other and hot on each other... how should i approach this as we get closer to our missile range?

[TheSauvaaage]

I am no expert and I am still learning the Tomcat, but in general, the Cat is not build to be a dogfighter. It was build as an interceptor at long range engagement against bombers in the Cold War.

 

The strength lies within it's long-range AIM-54 armament (in it's intended interceptor role) and the high powered engines.

So, make sure you engage the enemy with your long range weaponry before they come close enough to draw you into their strength-territory. Otherwise you did something wrong in the first place, as if you tried to win an Indy500 race with your monster truck.

 

The above mentioned 18,27 and 15 are far superior in dogfights. That's what they have been build for.

That being said, a skilled 14 pilot can outclass a bad 18/27/15 pilot in any air to air engagement obviously.

But with equal skills and same degree of "luck": no chance

Edited March 26, 2019 by TheSauvaaage

[1Shot1KiLL]

, the Cat is not build to be a dogfighter.

 

LOL …. the tomcat is no slouch when it comes to ACM. you can kick there ARSE if you know what you are doing. if you have a Bandit on your six you have done something very wrong in the first place. doesnt matter what you are flying, the importan thing is to be able to stay on someones six. and the tomcat has the manuvers and the power to be able to latch on to the best of them

Edited March 26, 2019 by 1Shot1KiLL

[TLTeo]

People really need to stop with the whole "the Tomcat is not a dogfighter" bullshit.

 

F14B vs Viper/Eagle:

 

 

Same sustained turn rate, smaller turn radius. Not bad for "not a dogfighter".

 

To keep this on topic and give the OP some info: if you feel like putting in a good bit of time, look up "Fighter Combat: Tactics and Maneuvering" by Robert Shaw for WVR combat, it's excellent and should give you a good starting point. For jumping somebody, the best plan would be to turn off your radar (so you don't show up on their RWR) and close in for an AIM9 kill. For BVR combat I'd start with Jabbers' videos.

 

One thing I'm finding specifically for the Tomcat is that while the ACM radar lock modes can be annoying, VSL/HI in particular can lead to some fairly impressive off-boresight missiles shots; you can lock up a target up to 30 degrees above the nose, slave the AIM-9 head to it when it's 20 degrees off, and immediately shoot (and the Aim9M/L are all aspects, so these shots show up quite often). When starting from neutral merges I found it's relatively easy to get kills like that.

Edited March 26, 2019 by TLTeo

[fishermanivan]

The dogfight that almost torpedoed the F-15 for Japan.

 

 

[TheSauvaaage]

LOL …. the tomcat is no slouch when it comes to ACM

 

Nobody said it's a slouch

 

you can kick there ARSE if you know what you are doing.

 

Of course! If you got the skills...

 

if you have a Bandit on your six you have done something very wrong in the first place. doesnt matter what you are flying,

 

Totally agree.

[TheSauvaaage]

People really need to stop with the whole "the Tomcat is not a dogfighter" bullshit.

 

 

As I said, I'm no expert. When we are talking about dogfights, I'd say that an aircraft capable of stable slow speed turning is GENERALLY in advantage. And the F-14 (at least as per DCS sim) doesn't seem to get the upper hand in that regard.

 

Where it HAS the upper hand is in long range engagement and this is the game you should play with her. At least that's what I figured out for now. But I am still learning.

Compared to the Hornet, you can't just "bank and pull"...

 

Plus, the F-18 has the JHMCS, which also adds to lethality in a dogfight. It's not all about turn rates. It's also about technical capabilites, quick radar engagement etc.

 

And in general, I can only talk about DCS. I have no flying experience in real life and due to classified information I doubt that every plane in DCS is 100% accurate.

Plus, in DCS you can't "feel" the planes behaviour which IRL probably helps a lot to control her at max efficiency, especially since there is no FBW.

Edited March 26, 2019 by TheSauvaaage

[Airhunter]

Best tactic is: Shoot them in the face. ;)

[TheSauvaaage]

Best tactic is: Shoot them in the face. ;)

 

Best tactic is: Shoot them in the face from a long distance.

 

Fixed :D

[TLTeo]

As I said, I'm no expert. When we are talking about dogfights, I'd say that an aircraft capable of stable slow speed turning is GENERALLY in advantage.

 

 

The Tomcat is one of those aircraft, at least compared to the Viper and Eagle, as the plot I posted shows.

 

 

Compared to the Hornet, you can't just "bank and pull"...

 

 

Yes, I was assuming that the Tomcat driver would actually know how to fly his aircraft (say, without pulling too much AoA or blowing their wings off), and that's certainly harder without FBW fixing mistakes for you. Any aircraft will perform badly if thrown around carelessly, and will perform well when flown by a good pilot. This of course opens the bottomless pit of useless discussion that Internet debates call "if pilot of aircraft X makes no mistakes..." which is useless because, by definition, dogfights (and competitions in general) are won by whoever makes the fewest/least bad mistakes.

 

 

Plus, the F-18 has the JHMCS, which also adds to lethality in a dogfight. It's not all about turn rates.

 

 

This is very true and in general I would never make the decision to merge with an opponent with a JHMCS if I didn't have mine. VSL/HI off-boresight shots help but not enough to even the field. Then again, "struggles against technology 40 years younger than the design and 20 years younger than the airframe's peak employment" is not the same as "was not designed to dogfight", not even close. To make a practical example, the F15 and Su27 are fairly evenly matched, and one has a JHMCS while the other one doesn't.

 

 

 

 

It's also about technical capabilites, quick radar engagement etc.

 

I'm not sure what you define as technical capabilities or quick radar engagement and how that relates to WVR combat.

Edited March 26, 2019 by TLTeo

[Kirkey_badgers]

I was trying all sorts of BFM trying to shake an F-5 from my 6 - AI bear in mind, and I just really struggle. Think it shows how much I relied on the FBW system as I can get lucky and break the shadowing F5 in the say the M2K or F18.

 

In the cat it's difficult to learn the threshold of the airframe and not to snap at the pitch and over stress it. and trying to turn sharp with control!

[Oceandar]

Against competent pilots, WVR is highly unlikely you'd win. Probably you'd be killed first even before first turn.

 

The Tomcat is quite fast in military power, use it as your advantage in any situation both offensive and defensive. I could escape AMRAAM shot by Eagle within 10 miles something that I couldnt always do in the Hornet.

 

Trying to be sneaky? Use any ACM mode or turn the radar off and predict enemy turn then surprise him with the heater

 

Head on with altitude advantage? Use afterburner like crazy to gain more speed then release your anger with 54 or Sparrow. Beware of Flankers ET thou ....the missile is like a magnet for any fighters with afterburner on.

Edited March 26, 2019 by Oceandar

[Boris]

I was trying all sorts of BFM trying to shake an F-5 from my 6 - AI bear in mind, and I just really struggle. Think it shows how much I relied on the FBW system as I can get lucky and break the shadowing F5 in the say the M2K or F18.

 

In the cat it's difficult to learn the threshold of the airframe and not to snap at the pitch and over stress it. and trying to turn sharp with control!

 

Yes, I'd definitely say it's because you're used to FBW fighters. I have most of my dogfighting experience in the F-5 and the MiG-21, and I was struck by how easy it is to dogfight in the F-14B against AI.

FBW will let you thrash the stick around to hearts desire. With the Tomcat you have to get a feel for the limits.

[TheSauvaaage]

The Tomcat is one of those aircraft, at least compared to the Viper and Eagle, as the plot I posted shows.

 

Yeah I saw that. But it displays the Tomcat speed at 0.6 Mach (400 knots), which in my book is not slow speed. That's faster than my average cruise speed lol

 

Dogfighting at ~250 knots and the F-14 tends to bitch around in tight turns. In the Hornet it's pretty easy. A "stable" turn radius is definitely easier to pull of with a Hornet. Wouldn't you agree?

 

that's certainly harder without FBW fixing mistakes for you. Any aircraft will perform badly if thrown around carelessly, and will perform well when flown by a good pilot.

 

That's pretty general, but true. A "good" pilot keeps a plane within it's strength. And a good pilot (resp. a good driver) handles it as good as possible outside it's strengths.

 

What I wanted to point out is, that when using the Tomcat's strength, which from my perspective is clearly long range engagement, is the best way to handle it. But when dogfighting the other modules, all skills equal (or AI being "equal"), I'd say you must be more than "good" to keep up, because NOW you got into their strength area.

 

I'm not sure what you define as technical capabilities or quick radar engagement and how that relates to WVR combat.

 

Yeah, I shifted a bit off here about my overall point of view :)

 

 

I think we can all agree on the fact that each aircraft has it's strengths, weaknesses and purpose. Otherwise the USAF, USN and USMC would all have operated the same aircraft.

Just use whatever you like and find out how to use it... unless you can fly an Eurofighter, then always fly an Eurofighter :D

Edited March 26, 2019 by TheSauvaaage

[mkosmo]

Yeah I saw that. But it displays the Tomcat speed at 0.6 Mach (400 knots), which in my book is not slow speed. That's faster than my average cruise speed lol

 

Dogfighting at ~250 knots and the F-14 tends to bitch around in tight turns. In the Hornet it's pretty easy. A "stable" turn radius is definitely easier to pull of with a Hornet. Wouldn't you agree?

 

 

 

That's pretty general, but true. A "good" pilot keeps a plane within it's strength. And a good pilot (resp. a good driver) handles it as good as possible outside it's strengths.

 

What I wanted to point out is, that when using the Tomcat's strength, which from my perspective is clearly long range engagement, is the best way to handle it. But when dogfighting the other modules, all skills equal (or AI being "equal"), I'd say you must be more than "good" to keep up, because NOW you got into their strength area.

 

 

 

Yeah, I shifted a bit off here about my overall point of view :)

 

 

I think we can all agree on the fact that each aircraft has it's strengths, weaknesses and purpose. Otherwise the USAF, USN and USMC would all have operated the same aircraft.

Just use whatever you like and find out how to use it... unless you can fly an Eurofighter, then always fly an Eurofighter :D

 

Keep your energy up, then. When you're slow like 250kts, you just forced the fight to the ground.

[TLTeo]

Yeah I saw that. But it displays the Tomcat speed at 0.6 Mach (400 knots), which in my book is not slow speed. That's faster than my average cruise speed lol

 

 

The point of the plot is simply to show that the Tomcat can match the Viper and Eagle in turn performance, and those jets were most definitely designed for dogfighting. Mach .6 to .8 is a perfectly reasonable speed range for BFM in jets, at least if your goal is to have good sustained turn performance. I have no idea what cruise speed is in the Hornet, but in all the modules I fly most (Sabre, Viggen, Tiger, unsure about the Tomcat) Mach .6 to .8 depending on altitude is standard if I'm going for range over endurance.

 

 

Dogfighting at ~250 knots and the F-14 tends to bitch around in tight turns. In the Hornet it's pretty easy. A "stable" turn radius is definitely easier to pull of with a Hornet. Wouldn't you agree?

 

If I don't screw up my aileron/rudder inputs (using rudder correctly is INCREDIBLY important in the Tomcat) I have no problem maneuvering the Tomcat in that speed range, but the Hornet is definitely the superior jet at that speed. That said, even the Hornet would be happier at 300+ knots.

 

 

If anything, no offense but I think this conversation highlights which one of us flew the F5 and which one the F18 before the Tomcat was released :D

[TheSauvaaage]

I have no problem maneuvering the Tomcat in that speed range, but the Hornet is definitely the superior jet at that speed.

 

That's my point.

 

That said, even the Hornet would be happier at 300+ knots.

 

Absolutely

 

If anything, no offense but I think this conversation highlights which one of us flew the F5 and which one the F18 before the Tomcat was released :D

 

Yeah, I did. F-15, SU-27, Harrier, F-18, F-14 in that order. Master of none.

 

Why should your sentence be offensive? It is totally okay to not have flown all models if they don't interest you. I couldn't care less about the F-5, but I am still willing to learn the F-14.

You adapt, isn't it? I am doing this for fun, not to pay the rent :)

[Possum]

BFM is primarily about positioning and energy states. The key to winning is in keeping sight of the other guy and being able to successfully gauge his energy state and options in relation to yours. Losing sight, or not actively keeping track = losing. Not properly recognizing the bandits energy state will result in either missed opportunities or being baited into a disadvantage.

Energy management is all deciding when to convert airspeed for angles (or elevation) and when to preserve that airspeed for another opportunity. You have to know when to make that trade.

Sometimes you make the trade to try and force an error, sometimes you make the trade b/c you know you’ll have a shot. 300 kts was a threshold for me. Below that was an energy sinkhole. If I was going below 300kts, my options were going to be limited and I better be bringing the bandit down there with me or trading it for a distinct positional advantage.

Lastly, the Tomcat’s nose will move when you want it to, but it costs energy that isn’t easy to regain. Look up pitch/pulse, I haven’t seen it mentioned here but I’m sure it’s been talked about.

[TLTeo]

That's my point.

 

And mine is that under many circumstances you should avoid being in that speed range

 

Why should your sentence be offensive?

 

I just didn't want to sound like I was dissing your flying abilities :P

[Top Jockey]

I am no expert and I am still learning the Tomcat, but in general, the Cat is not build to be a dogfighter. It was build as an interceptor at long range engagement against bombers in the Cold War.

 

The strength lies within it's long-range AIM-54 armament (in it's intended interceptor role) and the high powered engines.

So, make sure you engage the enemy with your long range weaponry before they come close enough to draw you into their strength-territory. Otherwise you did something wrong in the first place, as if you tried to win an Indy500 race with your monster truck.

 

The above mentioned 18,27 and 15 are far superior in dogfights. That's what they have been build for.

That being said, a skilled 14 pilot can outclass a bad 18/27/15 pilot in any air to air engagement obviously.

But with equal skills and same degree of "luck": no chance

 

Yeah - start here if you will:

 

https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=140030

[TheSauvaaage]

Lastly, the Tomcat’s nose will move when you want it to, but it costs energy that isn’t easy to regain.

 

Totally! I'd say that is what it basically makes the Tomcat "more difficult".

When I first jumped into the Hornet, it was way easier to throw around and get decent results.

The Cat requires much more attention to achieve the same.

 

And mine is that under many circumstances you should avoid being in that speed range

 

Agree. But I am not always able to keep it as the Cat, as far as I can control it at the moment, loses energy quickly when you are forced to tight turns. Learning learning learning...

 

 

I just didn't want to sound like I was dissing your flying abilities :P

 

No worries, my flying abilities are godlike.... until I wake up :joystick: lol

 

 

Yeah - start here if you will:

 

https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=140030

 

Uff, where to start? That's a long thread :D

 

I didn't say the Tomcat is not agile. From what I have read and heard, it's primary purpose was to intercept at long range, thus the large tanks, powerful engines and Phoenix's. Makes sense to me. I never expected it to be a superior dogfighting module.

As stated above, it just costs more energy and attention than a FBW jet like the Hornet to keep up with other planes like the 27 or F-15.

My experience (so far!) is on par with OP, that is waaaaaaaaaay to hard to keep up in dogfight/close proximity UNLESS you master the Cat's behaviour, while the Hornet is way more forgiving on the Stick.

 

 

Would anybody here say that the F-14 is SUPERIOR in dogfighting than the F-18, SU-27 and F-15?

Edited March 26, 2019 by TheSauvaaage

[Kirkey_badgers]

Yes, I'd definitely say it's because you're used to FBW fighters. I have most of my dogfighting experience in the F-5 and the MiG-21, and I was struck by how easy it is to dogfight in the F-14B against AI.

FBW will let you thrash the stick around to hearts desire. With the Tomcat you have to get a feel for the limits.

 

True, I tend to find exceeding 15AOA in turns will really start to give you problems. Any other tips would be much obliged

[Top Jockey]

 

...

 

Uff, where to start? That's a long thread :D

 

I didn't say the Tomcat is not agile. From what I have read and heard, it's primary purpose was to intercept at long range, thus the large tanks, powerful engines and Phoenix's. Makes sense to me. I never expected it to be a superior dogfighting module.

As stated above, it just costs more energy and attention than a FBW jet like the Hornet to keep up with other planes like the 27 or F-15.

My experience (so far!) is on par with OP, that is waaaaaaaaaay to hard to keep up in dogfight/close proximity UNLESS you master the Cat's behaviour, while the Hornet is way more forgiving on the Stick.

 

 

Would anybody here say that the F-14 is SUPERIOR in dogfighting than the F-18, SU-27 and F-15?

 

See ? If you had read it, you surely wouldn't be asking that... :thumbup:

 

The reality is: there's MUCH more to dogfighting / BFM, than the simplified way you put things like which would be "superior".

 

That's precisely what that thread shows.

[Tiger-II]

you can kick there ARSE if you know what you are doing.

Of course! If you got the skills...

That's all there is to say. Practice more. :)

[Top Jockey]

People really need to stop with the whole "the Tomcat is not a dogfighter" bullshit.

 

F14B vs Viper/Eagle:

 

That pic speaks a lot.

(Already knew it, probably from that thread I don't get tired to mention.)

 

Now... do you have one of those for the F-14A ?

 

 

...

 

One thing I'm finding specifically for the Tomcat is that while the ACM radar lock modes can be annoying, VSL/HI in particular can lead to some fairly impressive off-boresight missiles shots; you can lock up a target up to 30 degrees above the nose, slave the AIM-9 head to it when it's 20 degrees off, and immediately shoot (and the Aim9M/L are all aspects, so these shots show up quite often). When starting from neutral merges I found it's relatively easy to get kills like that.

 

I thought VSL High mode allowed to lock a target up to 55º above the nose...

 

(Don't recal the AIM-9 L/M gimbal limits though.)