G-limiter override characteristics

[msalama]

+1 Lex

 

And for those uninformed, this guy is AFAIK a real-life Hornet driver so he knows what he's talking about.

[DeltaMike]

Is the f18 inherently unstable like the f-16? Ie has a hard time flying in a straight line without fly-by-wire

[Lex Talionis]

In MEC only, it is almost un flyable at slow speeds.

 

That is the great design trade off, right ? The more "positively stable" the easier to control the less maneuverable, the more "negatively stable" the more maneuverable the harder to control.

[M1Combat]

"So yes, make the paddle switch work correctly, just know that "correctly " also means the correct consequences for using it as well. Benefits only is not "correct "."

 

Yes please :). But we have to take baby steps here. Damage modeling, while certainly tied to the Over-G setup as you describe, is a different development challenge (that's currently being worked on) than just making the characteristics of deploying the switch correct.

 

 

If I had to choose... I'd be with Lex here for sure. I'd rather see the damage modeling as realistic as it can be.

 

I can also see the point of just wanting your interest in grabbing a little more G via the override to work as it would in the real thing. Nice and smooth... which is much safer in terms of over-G than it jumping 2-3 G like it does now. We're not going to die if we do... and dogfighting without the limiter is more fun :). We're not even going to get our ass chewed by anyone. Heck... we may not even land the aircraft :). Hell... Some air-quakers bail before the missile hits just so they don't "screw up their stats".

 

 

Anyway... I'm not sure how the conversation went in the direction of "one or the other" :). I'm not sure that was the intent of the OP or Lex's intent :). I'm fairly sure both of them want the sim to be as realistic as possible :). Me too :).

[G B]

 

I can also see the point of just wanting your interest in grabbing a little more G via the override to work as it would in the real thing. Nice and smooth... which is much safer in terms of over-G than it jumping 2-3 G like it does now. We're not going to die if we do... and dogfighting without the limiter is more fun :). We're not even going to get our ass chewed by anyone. Heck... we may not even land the aircraft :). Hell... Some air-quakers bail before the missile hits just so they don't "screw up their stats".

 

 

 

This is perfectly fine, so long as you understand that you and the Air quakers are doing something not even considered in the real world. In DCS, do whatever you want because you have that freedom and nobody would chew your ass out as you said. Just make sure that if you do care about realism (I don’t know if you do or not), that you understand hitting that switch in a fight is not a thing. At all.

 

With that said, I think I’ll leave this thread alone. Not much else to say.

[Lex Talionis]

"Hell... Some air-quakers bail before the missile hits just so they don't "screw up their .........".

 

When i first discovered this i just about spit my drink out laughing ..... needless to say our server doesn't allow this.

[M1Combat]

"When i first discovered this i just about spit my drink out laughing ..... needless to say our server doesn't allow this. "

 

I know right... :) and thank you for not allowing that kind of behavior :).

 

 

I'd like to get something straight if it's not classified though...

 

 

Are you pilots saying that the ONLY reason EVER that you'd pull the override is if you were going to hit the ground? I mean... that just doesn't seem reasonable to me. What about to save a wingman or yourself in a fight? I mean... why is missile damage considered "not good enough" but "ground damage" is? I know that actual dogfights are pretty much non-existent any more but... It could happen... so... Would you really die knowing that if you had survived your CO would be proud knowing you didn't hit the button?

 

I mean... Really?

 

That doesn't seem logical at all...

Edited May 23, 2019 by M1Combat

[SnappShot]

"When i first discovered this i just about spit my drink out laughing ..... needless to say our server doesn't allow this. "

 

I know right... :)

 

 

I'd like to get something straight if it's not classified though...

 

 

Are you pilots saying that the ONLY reason EVER that you'd pull the override is if you were going to hit the ground? I mean... that just doesn't seem reasonable to me. What about to save a wingman or yourself in a fight? I mean... why is missile damage considered "not good enough" but "ground damage" is? I know that actual dogfights are pretty much non-existent any more but... It could happen... so... Would you really die knowing that if you had survived your CO would be proud knowing you didn't hit the button?

 

I mean... Really?

 

That doesn't seem logical at all...

 

It's not used because hornet pilots are good enough without using it. The arguments with Lex and GB are fantastic examples of why the other fighter pilots in this game dont come out. They dont wanna deal with the continual argument from keyboard warriors. The DCS community never ceases to amaze me.

[M1Combat]

It's a valid question from an avid sim pilot... Not an argument. Nowhere have I said "You're wrong... this is how it's done." That would be an argument and I'd be an absolute fool to say something like that to an actual hornet pilot...

 

I'm just trying to clarify.

 

 

Is it actually realistic that a trained hornet pilot, if he decided that pulling the limiter would save his aircraft or that of another pilot from destruction that was not to be caused by the ground... Would he pull the limiter?

 

It's a pointed question that has not been answered.

 

Not an argument.

[M1Combat]

For the record...

 

I don't feel like I'm "entitled" to the effing answer either in case you were thinking about going there...

 

I am, however... entitled to ask the question.

[Lex Talionis]

Please come find us in discord. We talk about these concepts daily, fly them in the game, and overall try and implement as best we can.

 

 

No one get frustrated please...

Edited May 23, 2019 by Lex Talionis

[BuzzU]

A quick question Lex if you don't mind my snoopy nature.

 

Have you ever used it?

[M1Combat]

Well said Lex. I got a little frustrated :).

 

 

My apologies if I sounded like I was just trying to argue.

[G B]

A quick question Lex if you don't mind my snoopy nature.

 

Have you ever used it?

 

I have never used it. I don’t know anyone that’s used it. I don’t know anyone that knows anyone that’s used it. If somebody used it, that information would spread rapidly through the community (“holy $*^*, somebody pulled the paddle switch??!)

[M1Combat]

LOL :)

[G B]

It's a valid question from an avid sim pilot... Not an argument. Nowhere have I said "You're wrong... this is how it's done." That would be an argument and I'd be an absolute fool to say something like that to an actual hornet pilot...

 

I'm just trying to clarify.

 

 

Is it actually realistic that a trained hornet pilot, if he decided that pulling the limiter would save his aircraft or that of another pilot from destruction that was not to be caused by the ground... Would he pull the limiter?

 

It's a pointed question that has not been answered.

 

Not an argument.

 

You don’t need to pull the paddle switch to win a fight. If I lost a fight, nobody (including any CO) would ask to find out if the paddle switch was pressed. That is not what it’s for. You can reasonably assume you will break your airplane if you over-G. At the least it’s down for a while to be inspected and now out of your lineup until it’s inspected (and repaired). Your mindset of how it is used is just not in alignment with reality, despite how illogical it seems to you. 7.5G is plenty for the pilot to work with.

 

I’d pull the paddle switch if I was about to collide with somebody or something, AND if my current available G would not be sufficient.

 

Hopefully you consider that a direct answer. I encourage you to join Lex’s discord.

[M1Combat]

I'm a member of Lex's discord but I rarely have time lately to do any DCSing… :(. I sometimes jump into one of two single player missions I have built for myself to keep somewhat practiced.

 

Both in the 18...

 

One has an SU27 1-2nm out on my 6 guns only.

 

The other has an F15 at 11:00 at 15nm armed with 2x120 and 2x9m, I have 2x9x. We start opposite a valley but there is some terrain for masking if you make a turn to it immediately.

 

I've also got a mission made by MxStylie that allows you to spawn AO's/scenarios and I play that sometimes. I generally don't have time to do any more than engage, kill a couple ground targets and leave... likely getting jumped by whatever sort of response the mission decides it should send my way :).

[BuzzU]

I have never used it. I don’t know anyone that’s used it. I don’t know anyone that knows anyone that’s used it. If somebody used it, that information would spread rapidly through the community (“holy $*^*, somebody pulled the paddle switch??!)

 

Good enough for me. I'll just make believe it isn't there.

[Sandman1330]

This thread encouraged me to stop pulling the paddle in dogfights. And you know what? It hasn’t changed my kill ratio. I just make sure I’m flying a bit slower (corner for instantaneous 7.5g vs 9g). Most fights devolve to slower speeds where it’s not needed or would bleed speed way too quickly anyway.

[Hummingbird]

You don’t need to pull the paddle switch to win a fight. If I lost a fight, nobody (including any CO) would ask to find out if the paddle switch was pressed. That is not what it’s for. You can reasonably assume you will break your airplane if you over-G. At the least it’s down for a while to be inspected and now out of your lineup until it’s inspected (and repaired). Your mindset of how it is used is just not in alignment with reality, despite how illogical it seems to you. 7.5G is plenty for the pilot to work with.

 

I’d pull the paddle switch if I was about to collide with somebody or something, AND if my current available G would not be sufficient.

 

Hopefully you consider that a direct answer. I encourage you to join Lex’s discord.

 

 

The question was more along the lines of if you found yourself in actual combat against an aircraft from a competent airforce, like for example a Russian MiG-29 bearing down on you after a merge you couldn't prevent, perhaps because you had run out of missiles. Would you then care about a slight over G vs not coming home?

 

Also with a normal load out the ingame FCS won't allow you 7.5 G's, your aircraft would have to be completely clean and half full of fuel then. In general the FCS allows you 6 - 6.5 G's to play around with.

 

That said, once again I don't really care about how the individual pilot chose to use it, I strictly care about the systems functioning like they should, and that ofcourse includes a proper damage model. So if a Hornet would warp or disintigrate at 7.7 G's (I strongly doubt it would even at 8 to 9 btw) then that ofcourse needs to be modelled as well.

 

What I don't want is there to be artificial limitations forced upon us because "that's not something we ever do during training".

 

That is all.

[Terrificfool]

Don't USN pilots routinely spar against each other in training sorties? I'd say they are routinely 'fighting' against one of the most competent air forces in the world, wouldn't you? ;)

[Hummingbird]

Don't USN pilots routinely spar against each other in training sorties? I'd say they are routinely 'fighting' against one of the most competent air forces in the world, wouldn't you? ;)

 

Yes, but that is still training, and as soon as anyone goes over the peace time limit in training protocol is to "knock it off".

 

In real life combat there's no such safe word however.

[Hummingbird]

Not worth it

 

Look I am not, and never was, attempting to argue over what the typical use of this feature was/is in the real aircraft according to your experience. You're the pilot with the experience & training, not me. So please don't get offended over my questions.

 

All I am concerned with is that the aircraft itself works just like the real one, esp. in terms of its flight control systems. And as one pilot has already confirmed, with the override paddle depressed the onset of G's past the normal limit is entirely controlled by how quick or slow the pilot pulls back the stick. There is no sudden jump in G's - which from an engineering point of view would've also been very bad.

 

So let's get the aircraft working as it should, and since it's a game we will then let it be up to the individual on how he or she wants to operate it, with what'ever structural risk that may involve ofcourse being modelled as well.

[104th_Money]

Pulling the paddle switch will make a sudden jump in G if you are already pulling back hard on the stick.

 

As far as usage goes, it may not be used during routine training flights or even actual air to ground combat sorties due to no necessity or to increase the service life of the airframe BUT...If it was not meant to be used at a moments notice, whether in combat or an emergency pull, they wouldnt have made it easily accessible to the pilot.

 

If im in a PvP 1v1 dogfight or on a MP server in a fight and feel I would gain an advantage by using the g-limiter, trust me...Im using it without hesitation and I wouldnt feel bad or care for one second if it bothered the person I shot down because of it.

 

2 cents...

[26-J39]

All I am concerned with is that the aircraft itself works just like the real one, esp. in terms of its flight control systems. And as one pilot has already confirmed, with the override paddle depressed the onset of G's past the normal limit is entirely controlled by how quick or slow the pilot pulls back the stick. There is no sudden jump in G's - which from an engineering point of view would've also been very bad.

 

 

This is the point of the thread, Hummingbird is asking about HOW the override switch is modeled and if its correct. Not when to use it or how to use it, whats realistic and whats not.