Index specs released

[Fri13]

For DCS, we won't need the knuckles controllers.

 

I wouldn't give up at all the Oculus Touch controllers for any mouse or trackpad anymore. Way too immersive (like comparing VR to display) when flying with them. I am waiting the next step, the VR gloves to come around 100€ a pair for it. All that I want is to be able accurately point my finger and trigger left/right button and rotate a knob.

 

With the Rift S now, it should come actually possible if the cameras doesn't have IR filter. As one could very well get normal gloves that has a IR painted dots in them for positioning and cameras to track those points. No batteries etc required in good situation, as long you have some IR light lighting up the environment where hands are moving.

 

But for the Valve Knuckles, impossible when requiring to be tightened up etc.

[Fri13]

Sadly the Rift-S is a no go for me. IPD too small. So I'm in that 30% bracket. Its either an Index or hold my breath and wait for Oculus to make an equivalent.

 

If the reviews are really positive with the Index that's the direction I'll be leaning.

 

The testers who both had much narrower IPD and much wider IPD said that they didn't have the problem with the Rift S.

 

Sorry can't give the link, tried to search the history for that. But it was IIRC two ladies doing it on the first public announcement room etc. That was just a interesting observation that what they made. So it might be that Oculus is either conservative about the IPD or then... Yeah.

[mhe]

I wouldn't give up at all the Oculus Touch controllers for any mouse or trackpad anymore. Way too immersive (like comparing VR to display) when flying with them. I am waiting the next step, the VR gloves to come around 100€ a pair for it. All that I want is to be able accurately point my finger and trigger left/right button and rotate a knob.

 

With the Rift S now, it should come actually possible if the cameras doesn't have IR filter. As one could very well get normal gloves that has a IR painted dots in them for positioning and cameras to track those points. No batteries etc required in good situation, as long you have some IR light lighting up the environment where hands are moving.

 

But for the Valve Knuckles, impossible when requiring to be tightened up etc.

 

While stuff like the FlyInside simulator shows what is possible with the usual VR motion controllers, my preferred solution would be classic HOTAS combined with hand tracking similar to the way Leap Motion does it. Hopefully we will see a Leap module for the Index' front bay.

 

I simply want to be able to use my hotas without any gloves or anything else interfering. As much as it helps to be able to push buttons and flick switches, HOTAS control is the one thing I won't budge on.

[Wmacky]

While stuff like the FlyInside simulator shows what is possible with the usual VR motion controllers, my preferred solution would be classic HOTAS combined with hand tracking similar to the way Leap Motion does it. Hopefully we will see a Leap module for the Index' front bay.

 

I simply want to be able to use my hotas without any gloves or anything else interfering. As much as it helps to be able to push buttons and flick switches, HOTAS control is the one thing I won't budge on.

 

 

 

Agreed. Real flight controls, with hand tracking of some sort for button / knobs is the way.

[hansangb]

Disappoined that they stuck with the lighthouse tracking system, not a fan and why I don't use Vive or will purchase the Index. It also does not help matters that Valve has been less than supportive of us unlike other VR developers.

 

 

 

 

Man, I can't believe they won't help you guys. DCS is the POSTER CHILD for VR, methinks. But I could be biased. :D

[Harlikwin]

Man, I can't believe they won't help you guys. DCS is the POSTER CHILD for VR, methinks. But I could be biased. :D

 

Meh, userbase is probably way too small compared to "beats saber" or whatever that game is.

[hansangb]

Meh, userbase is probably way too small compared to "beats saber" or whatever that game is.

 

 

Or the space sims etc. I guess companies won't publish any numbers in fear of competition using it. I often wonder how many DCS folks there are that use VR.

[mhe]

Also, just a matter of time until we get a inside-out tracking software mod for the Index. Then we won't need any lighthouses for just DCS. I'll do other stuff with it as well, so I'll get the full lighthouse treatment for the play area, but DCS will remain a primary go-to for the Index as well. Damn, I can't wait. Put an improved version of a Leap Motion into that front expansion bay and I will be a happy man.

[Rex854Warrior]

Inside out tracking is awesome for DCS because it's easy to setup and for using controllers in front of you there will be no issues; the knuckles will be hard to work with because you have to lock them and in DCS it won't be easy to switch between stick and controller; but the resolution on the index is better which means in theory less SDE and that's a very good thing for DCS; the sound on the Index is better as well and in some circumstances outside tracking will be better. Lastly the price difference is insane.

At this point I'm lost because both have advantages and both have things I don't like, at least if DCS is the only game taken into account because the knuckles are awesome for pretty much every other game and would have sold me immediately.

I'm thinking since this isn't a true VR 2.0 experience anyways I might as well buy the Rift S waiting for a Rift 2 or a Valve index 2, I also really like the Oculus software plus ASW 2.0 Is coming for DCS hopefully.

 

EDIT : I forgot to mention the FOV bump on the Index, I read an article saying it wasn't very noticeable but it did seem rather sceptical so I'll wait for some others.

Edited May 6, 2019 by Rex854Warrior

[mhe]

I think nobody would really want to use the knuckles for DCS. However, if all you need to track is a headset, having to use a lighthouse is kinda sad. I think once inside-out becomes available for the HMD at least, we will have a really good system for DCS. And they do sell every piece of kit separately, which will also bring the cost down for DCS fans who don't play other stuff with the Index.

[Supmua]

Index specs released

 

Man, I can't believe they won't help you guys. DCS is the POSTER CHILD for VR, methinks. But I could be biased. :D

 

 

 

The number of DCS VR users is likely very puny compared to other VR apps. SteamVR had 700K+ users in November 2018 and this number is likely much higher now since the graph is trending up almost linearly—the Steam platform overall sees around 47 millions active users daily and more are getting into VR. This is why Valve coming out with their own VR device is such a big move since Valve/Steam is a household name when it comes to gaming.

Edited May 6, 2019 by Supmua

[mhe]

Sure, but with the Index, you will always have the option to use an LH setup. If software support for inside-out is done by someone, you can pick whatever you prefer for your particular application. Which is basically the mindset behind the Index. It is meant to be hackable, Valve could have brought the price down even further if they had omitted the cameras, but they chose not to.

 

Probably coding inside-out support for a camera arrangement like that would lead to them being sued by Microsoft or Oculus (pretty sure there are patents), but if that stuff is open source, Valve still has it on the feature list and is safe.

[etherbattx]

Index specs released

 

Probably coding inside-out support for a camera arrangement like that would lead to them being sued by Microsoft or Oculus (pretty sure there are patents), but if that stuff is open source, Valve still has it on the feature list and is safe.

 

so it was a business decision to spend r&d time and resources on a feature they can’t use or charge for, and instead, absorb the costs and give it away for free on the hope gamers will write software for it, which they won’t be able to monetize?

 

are you sure?

 

it doesn’t sound like a very good business plan. i’d be surprised if valve made a mistake like that.

[Johnny Dioxin]

I think nobody would really want to use the knuckles for DCS. However, if all you need to track is a headset, having to use a lighthouse is kinda sad. I think once inside-out becomes available for the HMD at least, we will have a really good system for DCS. And they do sell every piece of kit separately, which will also bring the cost down for DCS fans who don't play other stuff with the Index.

 

I wanted to order Index and Lighthouse only, but didn't have that option. In order to get Lighthouse, I had to order the whole kit at £919/$1,000

 

I may have to cancel one or the other (Index or -S) as Mrs wants a new kitchen, but I'm torn on which one to cancel. If I knew my 2060 would run DCSW okay on the Index, I'd stick with that - but as things are, it would be a gamble. May have to play it safe and go with Rift S.

 

I was laughing away this morning at the usual silly YouTube videos and their titles about Index and -S (Rift-S is not an upgrade! We've been conned! etc - who said it was an upgrade at all? I don't remember any Oculus staff saying this). And people are trying to advise others what to buy, when we know almost nothing of the Index - just specs alone, and not even all of that.

 

What concerns me is the tens of thousands of people who watch and are influenced by these armchair experts (the same armchair expert types that have hindered the acceptance of VR, I would add).

[Rex854Warrior]

I wanted to order Index and Lighthouse only, but didn't have that option. In order to get Lighthouse, I had to order the whole kit at £919/$1,000

 

I may have to cancel one or the other (Index or -S) as Mrs wants a new kitchen, but I'm torn on which one to cancel. If I knew my 2060 would run DCSW okay on the Index, I'd stick with that - but as things are, it would be a gamble. May have to play it safe and go with Rift S.

 

I was laughing away this morning at the usual silly YouTube videos and their titles about Index and -S (Rift-S is not an upgrade! We've been conned! etc - who said it was an upgrade at all? I don't remember any Oculus staff saying this). And people are trying to advise others what to buy, when we know almost nothing of the Index - just specs alone, and not even all of that.

 

What concerns me is the tens of thousands of people who watch and are influenced by these armchair experts (the same armchair expert types that have hindered the acceptance of VR, I would add).

 

Honestly I think people are so pumped about getting a true VR 2.0 headset, and why wouldn't they be after all, that they are way too enthusiastic about anything that comes out.

 

As for your problem, I can say that you'll run DCS in VR with the Index without any issues if you can currently run DCS in 4K at 50~60fps or run a Rift or Vive at about 1.6* upscaling or a Vive Pro comfortably. For the VR headsets it's roughly equal to the amount of pixels rendered on the Index with 1.2* upscaling which is standard I believe for the Vive Pro and will be plenty to reduce aliasing enough.

 

And lastly, since I think any VR fan, with some ressources :D, will buy the true 2.0 headsets with the proper computer to go with them, I really wouldn't recommend going all out just yet, unless of course you want the best thing out there now as it indeed might take some time for 2.0 stuff.

Edited May 7, 2019 by Rex854Warrior

[Supmua]

If you only need the headset then get a used Vive setup to get those lighthouse stations and the wands, then buy the Index headset separately.

 

But for just playing DCS only, the HP Reverb or Acer OJO might be a more reasonable route, since image fidelity should be better due to super high res screen. I’m just speculating but we should start seeing reviews of the HP with DCS soon.

[Rex854Warrior]

If you only need the headset then get a used Vive setup to get those lighthouse stations and the wands, then buy the Index headset separately.

 

But for just playing DCS only, the HP Reverb or Acer OJO might be a more reasonable route, since image fidelity should be better due to super high res screen. I’m just speculating but we should start seeing reviews of the HP with DCS soon.

 

Although even a 2080Ti will have issues running those screens, around 9 million pixels to push which is more then 4k and you have to account for more performance required because of VR, although this extra required might drop considerably soon for DCS hopefully.

Edited May 7, 2019 by Rex854Warrior

[Johnny Dioxin]

Funnily enough, as keen as I am to try my RTX 2060 with the Rift in DCS World, I've not yet had time to do it, I've just been so busy with non-PC stuff.

 

I don't have 4k - but I will definitely be testing the performance in VR soon.

 

Anyway, I am going to keep my order for the Rift-S and see what the reports on the Index are like. If it's up to snuff, I'll keep the order and get it on my credit card instead of cash. Mrs is not keen to deprive me of my headset (we had a little chat since my post and she's very keen for me to keep my orders - very nice of her! :D ).

 

My order isn't due to be confirmed until 31st August, and by that time I should have enough info on its performance and required hardware to make an informed decision. Though it would have been nice to know before I get the Rift, that's the way it goes...

[Harlikwin]

Although even a 2080Ti will have issues running those screens, around 9 million pixels to push which is more then 4k and you have to account for more performance required because of VR, although this extra required might drop considerably soon for DCS hopefully.

 

Well I'm running DCS today at PD2.0 with a rift, 1080x1200 per eye. Which is about like 2160x2400 per eye. With moderate "graphical details" plus whatever additional hit you get from "supersampling" that scene. So, while I think it will be "taxing" it should be doable. And hopefully the 50% frame rate increase that Wags promised should mean it will be doable for high end cards.

[Rex854Warrior]

Well I'm running DCS today at PD2.0 with a rift, 1080x1200 per eye. Which is about like 2160x2400 per eye. With moderate "graphical details" plus whatever additional hit you get from "supersampling" that scene. So, while I think it will be "taxing" it should be doable. And hopefully the 50% frame rate increase that Wags promised should mean it will be doable for high end cards.

 

That's definitely not on heavier missions though, some friends of mine barely reach ~30fps per eye with 2080Tis playing them with a PD of 1.6-1.7 (Rifts) and medium settings. Which is playable but if you turn up the PD not so much. Anyways this is sort of off-topic.

Edited May 7, 2019 by Rex854Warrior

[Harlikwin]

That's definitely not on heavier missions though, some friends of mine barely reach ~30fps per eye with 2080Tis playing them with a PD of 1.6-1.7 (Rifts) and medium settings. Which is playable but if you turn up the PD not so much. Anyways this is sort of off-topic.

 

Thats online, with servers with 30-40 people typically. I'm not get 90fps, I'm getting a solid 45 tho.