Question RE holding with Case 1

[Hippo]

From the CV NATOPS:

 

A ceiling of 3,000 feet and 5 miles visibility within the carrier control zone is required.

This approach may be utilized when it can be anticipated that flights will not encounter instrument conditions at any time during the descent, break, and final approach.

 

The jet and turboprop port holding pattern is a left-hand pattern tangent to the BRC or expected BRC with the ship in the 3-o’clock position and a maximum diameter of 5 nm. Flights shall be established at their assigned port holding pattern altitude 10 nm prior to entering the pattern.

 

Minimum altitude assignment shall be 2,000 feet MSL. A minimum of 1,000 feet vertical separation between holding altitudes shall be maintained.

What happens wrt holding if there's an overcast at (say) 3,500 ft over the ship? Does this mean with Case 1 that no aircraft can hold above this level? If there were many aircraft inbound wouldn't it simply not be possible to stack them all up with Case 1?

[Lex Talionis]

Yup....just because you have the minimums for case 1 dose not mean you can only recover aircraft case 1. The volume of aircraft and rate for which they are recovered is taken into account. The limiting factor, as long as no one bolters, is the max number of aircraft allowed in the pattern. Aircraft in the pattern can be recovered at approximately every 45 secconds. Ideally an aircraft entering from the break only occupies the pattern in the downwind and is immediately recovered no longer occuping a slot in the pattern. As long as no aircraft bolters, thus returning back to the pattern potentially filling it up, you can have a constant stream of aircraft entering the break with no disruption in recovery and no need to martial. Only reason for martial is if inbound aircraft need to wait for pattern congestion, or flight deck readiness, to allow their recovery.

Edited May 7, 2019 by Lex Talionis

[Jetguy06]

Yup....just because you have the minimums for case 1 dose not mean you can only recover aircraft case 1. The volume of aircraft and rate for which they are recovered is taken into account. The limiting factor, as long as no one bolters, is the max number of aircraft allowed in the pattern. Aircraft in the pattern can be recovered at approximately every 45 secconds. Ideally an aircraft entering from the break only occupies the pattern in the downwind and is immediately recovered no longer occuping a slot in the pattern. As long as no aircraft bolters, thus returning back to the pattern potentially filling it up, you can have a constant stream of aircraft entering the break with no disruption in recovery and no need to martial. Only reason for martial is if inbound aircraft need to wait for pattern congestion, or flight deck readiness, to allow their recovery.

 

 

So, it's possible that under Case I conditions that you may not have to enter the marshal stack if there is little enough traffic?

 

 

I've been hitting the boat alot recently, doing quite a bit of CQs, and I always do the standard departure with the 20 degree turn, 500 feet at 300 knots until 7 nm from the carrier, etc. When I fly back in, I always enter the marshal for at least one orbit (or if I'm flying with the LSO mod in a mission, I may be cleared before I orbit 360 degrees) before I go to the break.

 

 

If there are few enough aircraft nearby in the air, I can simply go straight to the Initial for the break?

 

 

Thanks!!

[Hippo]

Many thanks for replying.

 

"Flights shall be established at their assigned port holding pattern altitude 10 nm prior to entering the pattern."

 

I had interpreted this to mean that all aircraft come into the hold at their assigned altitude from 10 miles away, so 2,000 ft for lowest level, and then circle and drop to enter the pattern at 800 ft.

 

If I understand you correctly would the default situation is aircraft coming in from 10 miles behind the ship at 800 ft straight into the pattern, without going into the hold at all? i.e what actually happens 10 nm from the ship?

[shagrat]

From the CV NATOPS:

 

A ceiling of 3,000 feet and 5 miles visibility within the carrier control zone is required.

This approach may be utilized when it can be anticipated that flights will not encounter instrument conditions at any time during the descent, break, and final approach.

 

The jet and turboprop port holding pattern is a left-hand pattern tangent to the BRC or expected BRC with the ship in the 3-o’clock position and a maximum diameter of 5 nm. Flights shall be established at their assigned port holding pattern altitude 10 nm prior to entering the pattern.

 

Minimum altitude assignment shall be 2,000 feet MSL. A minimum of 1,000 feet vertical separation between holding altitudes shall be maintained.

What happens wrt holding if there's an overcast at (say) 3,500 ft over the ship? Does this mean with Case 1 that no aircraft can hold above this level? If there were many aircraft inbound wouldn't it simply not be possible to stack them all up with Case 1?

With the CASE I conditions not met, the holding for CASE II/III is in effect. Only when you have VFR CASE I condition does the CASE I holding apply.

CASE III holding is somewhere behind the carrier

[shagrat]

Should be this one...

[Lex Talionis]

There are different operating scenarios, "CQ" and "Cyclical ops" .... during cyclical ops, much if not all is done without coms so the clock dictates when things happen. In this instance the aircraft from the prior cycle is in martial waiting for the next cycle to launch, the deck to be cleard, then descend from martial and recover. The "flights shal arrive in port holding at their assigned altitudes" needs to be put in context.

Their recovery is contingent on the clearing of the previous group so they "shall "martial.

 

During CQ, or just about any other scenario, flight deck readiness can be in various states, to include ready now upon your arrival. If ready and the boat can recover you now, no need to martial.

 

To answer your question, yes, the air bos can clear you direct to the initial if he desires. The term is "your signals Charlie " or something to that effect.

 

Fun fact: the term "Charlie " comes from way back in the day (WW2 ish), when aircraft orbiting overhead would wait for the boat to turn and steam onto the wind. In turning into the wind, a large "C" would be created in the watar by the wake of the boat indicating the turn to head wind and ready for aircraft recoveries.

 

And to clarify, this is all in the context of case I.

 

Hope this helps. Can find us in discord if you have more questions. Link below...

Edited May 8, 2019 by Lex Talionis

[BuzzU]

Lex,

 

What was your first Case III landing like? Was your heart going 200 BPM like mine and mine isn't real.

[Lex Talionis]

.... first case III is done in the rag, at night, solo. was a good time.

 

Save those stories for discord though;)

[BuzzU]

:)