Full cockpit + VR?

[sk000tch]

I understand the dilemma...

 

But I think you guys are taking the wrong approach. If you think about it, event if you have a mixed reality device you would still need to see the 3d cockpit rendered in the game, or replace the virtual cockpit with a black hole? I think it would be kind of weird.

 

How about this:

 

If you could see your hands in the sim, move your hand so that you touch the panel in the game.

 

In the real world, mount a mdf board at this distance. Take small pieces of masking tape and locate the switches one my one so that they relate to the switches on the virtual cockpit.

 

Doing this, you don't need to see your physical cockpit, the visuals are purely in the virtual world and you don't need to mix in your physical pit.

 

You could even have multiple boards for different planes and change them.

 

Currently I am running on a headtracker with a large curved projector screen, when the technology is sufficiently mature I will be moving to VR (maybe 3-5 years from now) and this is probably what I'll be doing.

 

Ya... my issue is changing boards. In addition to the pain in the butt, you've got the added expense. And to do it right, you'd need side panels, as that's really where the majority of switches and rotaries are.

 

I'm still contemplating, before I got sidetracked with some work I started to make a spreadsheet with controls I'd want for each module, assigning them to four zones (left, left front panel, right front panel, right), to see how much overlap there is.

 

Once you get past a certain point how much utility per $ and time are you getting vs. something like a realsimulator FSSB for the upcoming viper? Or a custom throttletech w/ hall sensors and a force sensing slew? Or a collective (as a helo pilot, throttle as collective drives me nuts)

 

So, speaking from person experience, you get a few hundred hours in type and you are not looking down at switches.

[mrwell]

Full cockpit + VR?

 

I understand the dilemma...

 

 

 

But I think you guys are taking the wrong approach. If you think about it, event if you have a mixed reality device you would still need to see the 3d cockpit rendered in the game, or replace the virtual cockpit with a black hole? I think it would be kind of weird.

 

 

 

How about this:

 

 

 

If you could see your hands in the sim, move your hand so that you touch the panel in the game.

 

 

 

In the real world, mount a mdf board at this distance. Take small pieces of masking tape and locate the switches one my one so that they relate to the switches on the virtual cockpit.

 

 

 

Doing this, you don't need to see your physical cockpit, the visuals are purely in the virtual world and you don't need to mix in your physical pit.

 

 

 

You could even have multiple boards for different planes and change them.

 

 

 

Currently I am running on a headtracker with a large curved projector screen, when the technology is sufficiently mature I will be moving to VR (maybe 3-5 years from now) and this is probably what I'll be doing.

 

 

 

Well, in fact, I do want to see my physical cockpit. I build it to be seen!

You’re right that I’d need to chroma the MFDs displays, for example, in order to see the VR ones, or have very good HD cameras to see the real ones.

But watching my hands and cockpit in 3D I can use everything on it.

Cheers

 

Edited August 29, 2019 by mrwell

[METEOP]

Well, in fact, I do want to see my physical cockpit. I build it to be seen!

You’re right that I’d need to chroma the MFDs displays, for example, in order to see the VR ones, or have very good HD cameras to see the real ones.

But watching my hands and cockpit in 3D I can use everything on it.

Cheers

 

 

Wow! Yes I understand the dilemma...

[RightStuff]

Indeed...

Having built a detailed pit and not being able to see the result of the personal work, tears and money hurts.

 

Without a VR which is able to show a detailed pic of R/L, the pit could be pink and covered with Hell-of-Kitty stickers - 'we' won't notice...

 

MrWell: nice Pit - Thumbsup on this!

It shows great craftmans work.

[sk000tch]

Ya, you guys with painstakingly built pits have a different dlema than someone starting from scratch. I don’t feel too bad for ya though!

[StrongHarm]

Doing this, you don't need to see your physical cockpit, the visuals are purely in the virtual world and you don't need to mix in your physical pit.

 

That's what I did. It worked out better than I thought it would. When I reach for a button in VR it's there IRL. I'd like to have gloves so I can see my hands, but it's not really necessary since the physical buttons are in the same place as in VR. I didn't bother to model anything but what I use most in flight. For startup and shutdown I don't mind using the mouse.

 

I modeled it in Sketchup and used a real Hornet cockpit pic as the texture of the dash so I could line everything up. The whole thing cost about $400. When I want to fly I just spin over there in my office chair.

- Vertical buttons and Crs/Hdg toggles on the UFC are from a $20 arcade game kit that came with a usb circuit board - amazon.com (toggles are the arcade joysticks with the ball threads cut off)

- Horizontal UFC buttons are XK-8 programable keys from amazon.com

- The keypad is a cheap $10 pad I bought from amazon and removed some keys

- The dash shroud is a shop mat that I turned upside down heheh

 

I know it's ugly, but I can't see it when I'm flying, I can only feel it. That's why I didn't even bother to paint it haze grey... black minimizes it's ugliness in my office. I'll create a new post soon with the Sketchup plans and materials links.

Edited September 28, 2019 by StrongHarm
added another pic

[mrwell]

Thank you @RightStuff

 

 

@StrongHarm It is not ugly. I like it. Simple and effective. Nice work!

[TripRodriguez]

This is the same method I've been building for as well, but my coordination is poor so not being able to see my hands in VR means I still have to feel around, even when I'm looking right at the switch in VR and the same switch is there IRL.. if I can't see my hand I can't guide it directly to the switch.

 

For now at least OpenVRInputEmulator provides a way to use Vive Trackers for my hands, the only problem is I need someone to make a pair of gloves compatible with the SteamVR native overlay (which is super super fussy about models). For now I'm stuck with using a model of a VR hand controller in place of my hands which sucks.

 

If ED would fix the damned VR controls so that you have to squeeze grip or trigger to interact with anything I'd be able to use the built in DCS vr gloves.... but the way it is now anytime you move your hand around in certain areas switches will be flipping on and off like crazy. I made a post asking them to fix it but it got basically no attention whatsoever from VR users. Probably because very few VR users are using the vr controller support because DCS implementation has been really lousy. ED devs need to check out the XP11 VR controller implementation. They nailed it.

Edited September 28, 2019 by TripRodriguez

[StrongHarm]

Thanks mrwell. My wife assures me that it's ugly LOL. It's ok though; foo foo and tea upstairs, aviation and whiskey downstairs... that's the deal.

 

TripRodriguez, I "calibrate my brain" by touching certain points on the dash before startup. I grab either side of the ufc while looking at it, then I touch the bottom corners of the MFDs while looking at them and "consciously calibrating". I do this every time and it seems to help. I don't even look down for button pushes unless I'm interacting with menus.

[Snacko]

Curtis, the developer of OVR Toolkit (on steam) told me he would write a little code to make SteamVR display the SteamVR gloves. He's pretty certain it will work but it's a side project and not his priority so I've been waiting a couple weeks.

 

I'm sure he'd be more likely to do it sooner if others came by and asked for it, so join his Discord and ask him about Trip's VR Gloves!

 

I think this will get you there. He's a super nice guy and OVR Toolkit is a must have IMO.

 

https://discordapp.com/invite/rGWjyCz

 

Also in case that doesn't work, google OVR Toolkit Discord. If you don't use Discord, you can try posting on the forums but he doesn't watch it as closely as Discord. https://steamcommunity.com/app/1068820/discussions/

 

Thanks!

 

I just chatted with Curtis yesterday, and doesn't seem to have any plans for this. He did try and help me to get it working, but nothing worked. He said that Oculus does not support Overlays in their API(or something like that). And he wasn't too excited about having to setup his Rift and non-Steam DCS to work on this. I think he would be more motivated if he know he knew there was a demand(sales) for it. I wonder how many DCS VR users(non-steam) would be interested in it?

[Snacko]

PS: I made a Poll to see if there is enough interest in this to get the developers willing to make something work.

 

https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=252256

[TripRodriguez]

I just chatted with Curtis yesterday, and doesn't seem to have any plans for this. He did try and help me to get it working, but nothing worked. He said that Oculus does not support Overlays in their API(or something like that). And he wasn't too excited about having to setup his Rift and non-Steam DCS to work on this. I think he would be more motivated if he know he knew there was a demand(sales) for it. I wonder how many DCS VR users(non-steam) would be interested in it?

 

Yes I hit a bit of a dead end there too. So far you are the first to join me in this. Let me tell you the current state of things.

 

There is a plugin for SteamVR called OpenVRInputEmulator. The problem is that it was abandoned by the dev. So far the community has been able to keep it working with band-aids but eventually Steam will break it badly and we are going to need a new dev. No luck finding one so far. Anyway, for now it works!

 

So one of the features is "render model" where you can have SteamVR draw a 3D model attached to whatever device, in this case Vive Trackers mounted to the backs of my hands. Problem is there is no compatible glove or hand 3D model available. SteamVR is very very picky, to the point where most hobby modelers find it too aggravating to deal with.

 

So for now my only option is to draw a controller attached to it which works but not exactly immersive!

 

So we need to get someone to make a glove or hand model that works. I have contact with a guy who has successfully made 3D models for SteamVR. He can't do animations, just a static model but for me that's good enough. He is a busy guy though, so I'd been thinking about trying to offer him a little money just to make a hand or glove model work for me but I can't afford much. Maybe if you and I both chip in? You can PM me if this sounds like something you want to pursue.

[Snacko]

Yes I hit a bit of a dead end there too. So far you are the first to join me in this. Let me tell you the current state of things.

 

There is a plugin for SteamVR called OpenVRInputEmulator. The problem is that it was abandoned by the dev. So far the community has been able to keep it working with band-aids but eventually Steam will break it badly and we are going to need a new dev. No luck finding one so far. Anyway, for now it works!

 

So one of the features is "render model" where you can have SteamVR draw a 3D model attached to whatever device, in this case Vive Trackers mounted to the backs of my hands. Problem is there is no compatible glove or hand 3D model available. SteamVR is very very picky, to the point where most hobby modelers find it too aggravating to deal with.

 

So for now my only option is to draw a controller attached to it which works but not exactly immersive!

 

So we need to get someone to make a glove or hand model that works. I have contact with a guy who has successfully made 3D models for SteamVR. He can't do animations, just a static model but for me that's good enough. He is a busy guy though, so I'd been thinking about trying to offer him a little money just to make a hand or glove model work for me but I can't afford much. Maybe if you and I both chip in? You can PM me if this sounds like something you want to pursue.

 

So the way you describe it, the Overlay window will be attached to your controller? And always visible? If so I don't think I would like that. I don't even want to use my Hand Controllers at all. I don't use VR in DCS much because I can't see my related documents. And putting them all in the Checklist is not a great option. I wish that OVR Toolkit would work, and then I might also be interested in those Point Controllers that attached to your fingers maybe.

 

PS: Can you run DCS in Compatability Mode for Windows 7? Curtis said this was the fix for Elite Dangerous. When I do this DCS crashes immediately. It would be nice to know if it works on other systems..

Edited October 12, 2019 by Snacko

[TripRodriguez]

Ah ok, since you mentioned Curtis I assumed you were looking for the same functionality I had been working with Curtis to try to achieve.

 

All I want is to be able to see (in the VR HMD) where my hands are, so I can reach out and touch the real controls without having to feel around for them. I'd completed proof of concept, it works.

 

So I just want SteamVR to draw VR hands where my real hands are. Nothing else. Currently I have it working, only catch being that instead of drawing hands it's drawing VR controllers. For SteamVR to know where my hands are I'm wearing gloves with Vive Trackers mounted to the backs of the hands so they don't interfere at all with operating my cockpit controls.

[AcroGimp]

For the design of my prototype QuickPit I used the dimensions of the real F/A-18C Instrument Panel as a guide to bound the panel and glareshield and then figuring out what Force IPD Distance setting in DCS combined with placement of the QuickPit, Stick and Throttle in 3D space lets me make 1 to 1 movements.

 

Once that is set I will say that VR, a realistic instrument panel and HOTAS layout and SimShaker is incredibly immersive.

 

DISCO

[TripRodriguez]

My process was the same for my Huey pit, but my muscle memory is nowhere near accurate enough to be able to touch a switch or knob when I can't see where my hand is relative to it. This is why I need to be able to see my hands in VR.

 

It's not that I don't know where the switch or knob is, it's that I don't know where my hand is!

[VampireNZ]

Same deal here - have the MFD's, ICP and stick etc all set in same location as in the sim for the Viper and it works pretty well.

I do use some small foam blocks on the side rail of each MFD beside the middle button on each edge to -orient- my hand a little when searching for a specific button, but generally can hit it bang-on now. Also having no trouble in VR using the ICP quickly inputting say new co-ords or something like that after a little practice, but having it right in front of your face and bracing your left hand on the edge of it makes alignment of your hand/fingers a bit easier.

 

But def +1 for "Once that is set I will say that VR, a realistic instrument panel and HOTAS layout and SimShaker is incredibly immersive."

Edited October 16, 2019 by VampireNZ