What is the state of the FM as of today?

[fl0w]

The F-14’s artificial feel system is literally just a spring that can move with the trim actuator and a bob weight that increases stick force with positive G. I will also be bringing back the aerodynamic buffet a little closer to the original after some further SME feedback/testing by Victory205. This will happen when I get back to the States end of next week so don’t expect it in the next patch.

 

Love it! Hope to see it progress further and become better. :D

[Hummingbird]

A cockpit driver is the simmer that gets most enjoyment from interacting with the cockpit. These guys are usually out best source of information on many aircraft. They know all the procedures, all the loads, all the restrictions, all the air speeds. If you as a developer botched the onspeed AoA by half a unit, these will be guys that will spot it first and report the issue. They also know all the switches, where they are and what they do.

A HUD driver is a guy that drives through the HUD (duh). I used to be this (as i assume most of the other people that started gaming in the 80's or early to mid 90's) at one point, more by necessity then by choice. Back in the day sims were all about vector graphics and fixed views. Very few titles had free view options and even those were usually clunky, requiring you to use a mouse or a numpad to look around. So naturally, many designers "concentrated" as much of the avionics and the instruments through the front view, usually dominated by the HUD. Sometimes this even resulted with the HUD having more functions integrated into it then the real plane would, to make the sim more user friendly. So "we" spent most of the time in the forward view and grew increasingly dependent on the HUD to provide all the data we needed. For me, the breaking point was a well known WW2 title from the early 2000's which shall not be named here. Being deprived on any navigational and targeting aids is a good way to learn new ways of flying in a simulated environment :)

 

Ah ok, Gotcha :)

 

As for me checking airspeed and AoA.

1. Of the top of my mind, i check air speed on 4 separate occasions, and 2 of them are landing related. I usually check air speed pre-merge, in the 10-5 NM range. Starting at 10NM and never looking back at the dial if i am where i want to be for what i've planed as my main game. Then i also use air speed during AAR (i totally s*ck at it BTW :P ). And then i check air speed during my initial upwind, when i overfly the carrier, and then during the downwind break, so i can deploy gears and flaps. Those are about the only "regular" cases. If i need to maintain a certain ETA, then of course i'll check my speed, but that will be my ground speed.

2. The AoA strip i consult immediately after my downwind break and never lose it out of sight during the entire trim-onspeed-landing approach.

 

Yeah we definitely fly differently :D

 

 

We must disagree on this. I don't think the EM charts were made so that pilots would fly their aircraft by them. At least i could never do it. I mean, if you only need to fly the STRs (0 excess power) then yes, i can see how they can be very useful. Aside from that, (for me at least) they are more of an "on paper" guidelines, then things to be memorized. There are way too many breakpoints, way too many energy states and way too many calculations that connect them for me to perform in real time, while fighting a bandit. I mean, there are reasons why i use spreadsheets when i calculate FM's. So i tend to rely on "cues" that tell me how my energy state changes. All i need to know is my initial point (look above for pre merge setup) and after that i fly 95% on "feel". :thumbup:

 

That's ok, but that was actually the point of the charts, to teach pilots where their best maneuvering speeds were. Same with AoA, this was also to be briefly monitered during a fight if possible for best results. The best of pilots can/could ofcourse tell a lot just by the seat of their pants (not as easy in a sim where we don't experience all the different accelerations), and my guess is that real pilots look less at the dials than many of us sim drivers, as would I if I could actually feel the forces - but they do still look/check, also during fights :)

[captain_dalan]

Yeah we definitely fly differently :D

:thumbup:

 

That's ok, but that was actually the point of the charts, to teach pilots where their best maneuvering speeds were. Same with AoA, this was also to be briefly monitered during a fight if possible for best results. The best of pilots can/could ofcourse tell a lot just by the seat of their pants (not as easy in a sim where we don't experience all the different accelerations), and my guess is that real pilots look less at the dials than many of us sim drivers, as would I if I could actually feel the forces - but they do still look/check, also during fights

 

I can't tell how the real fighter pilots do it, as i'm not one. I can only speak from what makes sense to me (from my math-physics and limited aerobatic experience).

Let's put it into context with an example and take the plane we both love and know much about, the F-14, both the A and the B models. Without quoting actual numbers, just by looking at the E-M charts, what is the difference between the two? Their cornering rates/speeds seams the same, sustained turning rates are very similar, even the energy bleed rates are almost exactly the same. So what's the difference, what is the best maneuvering speed for both and how will this affect how you fight in each?

 

As for the angle of attack meter, i find it most useful during landings. I don't think i could ever do it without one. In a fight....not so much. If you would allow me, i'd quote an old interview with an old aviator "to me it's a stupid instrument, tells you what your angle of attack is, if you don't know, you shouldn't be flying" :smilewink:

[Hummingbird]

I dunno, I tend to do very little checks during landing and only periodically check my ASI :P (EXCEPT during carrier landings, I'm a nervous wreck constantly checking instruments here :D )

 

So seems like I am an instrument guy during fights and "feels" guy during landing and that you're the exact reverse haha :D

 

Talked to an F-16 pilot about the matter yesterday and he definitely pays a lot of attention to speed during fights (AoA he doesn't really worry about, the F16 FCS keeps him safe here), but he also agreed that it varies between pilots, some are a lot more "seat of the pants" than others :)

Edited September 30, 2019 by Hummingbird

[stuart666]

Does anyone have thoughts on the trim? The good news is it makes it a lot easier to get dialled in. The problem im finding is that it takes a LONG TIME to get dialled in, or seems to me, compared to what it was before. It proved something of an issue in in flight refueling, or maybe its just a reflection im out of practice. :D

[Chaogen]

:thumbup:

 

If you would allow me, i'd quote an old interview with an old aviator "to me it's a stupid instrument, tells you what your angle of attack is, if you don't know, you shouldn't be flying" :smilewink:

 

It is relevant because it is a core component of your co-efficient of lift. That physics force that keeps your plane in the air. The reason you use it in a turn is to ensure that you keep your lift generation is as efficient as possible before you start inducing so much drag that your engines can't produce enough thrust to maintain you airspeed. It also keeps you from completely separating airflow over your wings and stalling (more than likely entering a spin). Another key component of the physics equation for lift. Someone at Grumman figured out the sweet spot with some math and that why we have the "magical" 15 units of AOA for maximum (EDIT: Sustained) turning rate.

 

AOA for landing sets the A/C up for the maximum amount of lift co-efficient to generate the maximum amount of lift for the minimum airspeed (+ safety margin determined in flight test). And while attitude and AOA seems similar, they are not. Your aircraft velocity vector determines AOA. Pitch Attitude is a meaningless measurement that only serves to tell you which way is up and a poor substitute in the absence of having an AOA instrument.

Edited September 30, 2019 by Chaogen

[TLTeo]

That old aviator is not exactly known for his objective opinions either...

[Victory205]

Still amazing that pilots don't understand Angle of attack.

 

https://aviationweek.com/business-aviation/understanding-angle-attack-indicator?utm_rid=CPEN1000003189404&utm_campaign=21581&utm_medium=email&elq2=817e3fb5d57f4843b8d9ffe2485bd2fe

[captain_dalan]

I dunno, I tend to do very little checks during landing and only periodically check my ASI :P (EXCEPT during carrier landings, I'm a nervous wreck constantly checking instruments here :D )

 

Ah, by landings i meant carrier landings (which are about 90% of all the landings i've done in DCS). When i don't land on a carrier, it's usually on a meadow or something, with my landing gear locked and my six riddled with 20mm holes on the Just Dogfights server........and that's assuming i lived that far :music_whistling:

 

It is relevant because....<snip>

 

AOA for landing sets the A/C up for the maximum amount of lift co-efficient to generate the maximum amount of lift for the minimum airspeed (+ safety margin determined in flight test). And while attitude and AOA seems similar, they are not. Your aircraft velocity vector determines AOA. Pitch Attitude is a meaningless measurement that only serves to tell you which way is up and a poor substitute in the absence of having an AOA instrument.

 

Not gonna argue with the first one (as it's rather obvious why it's important if you ever tried to calculate how much lifting force do you need to generate to keep a plane afloat - or maneuvering for that matter), hence the snip.

 

But the second? Last time i checked, maximum lift is generated right before the stall point, that usually means right up to max AoA, which is probably not where you want to be on final. More likely, it is set at optimum lift to drag, which occurs around 9-11 degrees (true) AoA (equivalent to 15 units in this regime) but don't quote me on that, as i don't have the manuals or the charts with me right now.

 

That old aviator is not exactly known for his objective opinions either...

I know, i know. And i can't say i really like the guy all that much, but i was afraid i might start a flame war if i pointed that out :D

Edited October 1, 2019 by captain_dalan

[Eagle7907]

So I noticed changes again. Are we getting close to being completely dialed in?

 

 

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