M200c, NVG and Visor

[caponi]

Hi,

 

i am a little bit confused about the NVG handling ...

 

in my keybindings i found:

 

Toggle helmet visor (alt-Home)

and

Switch NFG / Visor (alt-Home)

 

hmmm duplicate definition ? :music_whistling:

 

then i defined two buttons one for Toggle and one for Switch

 

then i did a toggle and the NVG became green light

i did it again and then NVG wents out to normal

NVG on / off all was fine

 

Then i decide to use normal visor and i have got the message "NVG already build up"

 

and after that button press, nothing will change ... no NVG's no Visor only normal sight ...

 

What is wrong or what did i wrong ?

 

Best regards

Cap

Edited August 1, 2019 by caponi

[Conroy]

Bump, same here.

 

Yesterday in Blue Flag (night), i've been force to eject because of it: there was not way to fly with NVG because of that message. My fault, but really is a bit confuse.

[Steph21]

You have to ask Ground Crew to either mount Visor or NVG

Then use toggle function to switch on/off the mounted device

 

Just tested it, works fine

 

Apparently you can't have both mounted and switch between each in flight (might come from AdA feedback)

 

As i never use the visor, that will be an easy choice for me

[jojo]

You have to ask Ground Crew to either mount Visor or NVG

Then use toggle function to switch on/off the mounted device

 

Just tested it, works fine

 

Apparently you can't have both mounted and switch between each in flight (might come from AdA feedback)

 

As i never use the visor, that will be an easy choice for me

 

No, I think it comes from DCS way of doing it, hopefully it will be corrected.

 

On French helmets, both former Gueneau 458 and current Gallet helmet, you don't have to remove sun visor to mount NVG.

[Harlikwin]

Hm, which exact model of the M2k is modeled, and did it even have a NV compatible cockpit?

[jojo]

Hm, which exact model of the M2k is modeled, and did it even have a NV compatible cockpit?

 

Mirage 2000C RDI S5-2C.

NVG in operational use since at least 2015 when EC 2/5 put emphasis on AG which was previously secondary.

Cockpit has been adapted accordingly.

 

That's the Gallet helmet NVG mount:

 

Edited August 5, 2019 by jojo

[caponi]

You have to ask Ground Crew to either mount Visor or NVG

Then use toggle function to switch on/off the mounted device

 

...

 

ahhhh ... that makes sence :thumbup:

Thx

 

can i assume, that the second switch keybind is a direct communication key ?

 

I need only the first toggle ... :D

[Harlikwin]

Mirage 2000C RDI S5-2C.

NVG in operational use since at least 2015 when EC 2/5 put emphasis on AG which was previously secondary.

Cockpit has been adapted accordingly.

 

That's the Gallet helmet NVG mount:

 

 

So out of curiosity when did this model enter service? I was under the mistaken impression that our M2k was a much earlier model.

[jojo]

So out of curiosity when did this model enter service? I was under the mistaken impression that our M2k was a much earlier model.

 

It was in the early 90’. Mirage 2000C S5 had tail numbers from 75 to 124.

In 1992 EC 1/12 Cambrési squadron in Cambrai was already equipped, EC 2/12 Picardie squadron was about to trade its old Mirage F1 C for the latest Mirag 2000C RDI S5.

But fighters get hundreds of modifications during their life time: radar, radio, ECM...stuff like that.

S5-2C was mainly RDI ECCM upgrade + ECM upgrade.

 

NCTR was a later upgrade, NVG too.

Edited August 6, 2019 by jojo

[Harlikwin]

It was in the early 90’. Mirage 2000C S5 had tail numbers from 75 to 124.

But fighters get hundreds of modifications during their life time: radar, radio, ECM...stuff like that.

S5-2C was mainly RDI ECCM upgrade + ECM upgrade.

 

NCTR was a later upgrade, NVG too.

 

So is there like a specific year/feature set for this one?

[jojo]

I already told you that the NVG is around 2015.

Most likely Razbam is adapting the module to what EC 2/5 (last Mirage 2000C RDI squadron) is currently using. They made a deal with French Air Force, this is why they get access to Orange Air Base.

And EC 2/5 already shared pictures of their gaming room.

 

They started with X-56 HOTAS, but lately I saw some pictures of moded Warthog with Mirage HOTAS replica.

[DrGarantia]

Is anyone able to remove the visor in flight after the last patch? I can put the visor down, but pressing the button again does nothing once I am flying.

[Harlikwin]

I already told you that the NVG is around 2015.

Most likely Razbam is adapting the module to what EC 2/5 (last Mirage 2000C RDI squadron) is currently using. They made a deal with French Air Force, this is why they get access to Orange Air Base.

And EC 2/5 already shared pictures of their gaming room.

 

They started with X-56 HOTAS, but lately I saw some pictures of moded Warthog with Mirage HOTAS replica.

 

Ok, so its the 2015 version. I'm not an expert on it. What features does the 2015 version have aside from NVG's vs the 90's version? Or is it feature complete at this point?

[jojo]

There isn't much difference in weapon system.

We can expect the cockpit adaptation to NVG.

 

This isn't a "2015 version", these are just modifications to an existing variant.

 

From 1997 Mirage 2000-5F were being delivered, and these were upgraded Mirage 2000C airframes.

[VampireNZ]

Is anyone able to remove the visor in flight after the last patch? I can put the visor down, but pressing the button again does nothing once I am flying.

 

Yeah I have been putting it up and down fine using one button on DSD box while I have been flying (and only because I accidentally hit the wrong button - who actually wants a darker screen in VR making it even harder to see through the tinted HUD?).

[Harlikwin]

There isn't much difference in weapon system.

We can expect the cockpit adaptation to NVG.

 

This isn't a "2015 version", these are just modifications to an existing variant.

 

From 1997 Mirage 2000-5F were being delivered, and these were upgraded Mirage 2000C airframes.

 

Let me rephrase my question. We know exactly what aircraft and what capabilities the 2007 era F18C ED is making has (within the realm of unclassified material). I just want to know, specifically what version of the M2000C we are getting and what specific year its based on. If its 2015 thats fine with me, if its a 90's bird that got NVG lighting in 2015 thats fine too.

[jojo]

Let me rephrase my question. We know exactly what aircraft and what capabilities the 2007 era F18C ED is making has (within the realm of unclassified material). I just want to know, specifically what version of the M2000C we are getting and what specific year its based on. If its 2015 thats fine with me, if its a 90's bird that got NVG lighting in 2015 thats fine too.

 

I think S5-2C is around 1996.

After that no real new standard.

 

It's more complicated than US Fighter, because you won't find Mirage 2000C RDI unclassified manual anywhere.

[Harlikwin]

Ok, so more or less a 96 era airframe/avionics and then a 2015 era NVG lighting upgrade.

[jojo]

Yep, my best guess.

[RedSky]

Do you know what sort of adaptations were done for cockpit lighting to support the NVGs, by chance? I assume Razbam have been getting this information either way, but I would think the cockpit was easy to upgrade: There aren't a lot of superfluous lights, the lighting is uniform and dimmable, as is the HUD. So it seems likely at least that the changes mostly consisted of issuing the NVGs and helmet mounts and swapping to LED backlighting to get rid of the IR component of incandescent lights. I'd be curious to see what else ended up being part of the update.

[jojo]

Do you know what sort of adaptations were done for cockpit lighting to support the NVGs, by chance? I assume Razbam have been getting this information either way, but I would think the cockpit was easy to upgrade: There aren't a lot of superfluous lights, the lighting is uniform and dimmable, as is the HUD. So it seems likely at least that the changes mostly consisted of issuing the NVGs and helmet mounts and swapping to LED backlighting to get rid of the IR component of incandescent lights. I'd be curious to see what else ended up being part of the update.

 

To adapt a cockpit to NVG you need to rework the whole cockpit lighting, and you need to get rid of red lighting...which was precisely the colour selected to light the cockpit without NVG.

 

Red light has the advantage to not destroy natural night vision.

But NVG doesn’t amplify all colors the same way. Red light is more amplified by NVG, so it’s blinding.

So you need to apply filters to all red lights, you need to provide new flood lights and so on.

 

In this Mirage 2000N cockpit you can see some green filters applied to light sources.

 

[RedSky]

Red light has the advantage to not destroy natural night vision.

But NVG doesn’t amplify all colors the same way. Red light is more amplified by NVG, so it’s blinding.

 

It does seem that most go to the green/blue lighting we see on a lot of the US fighters, and this appears to be the reason. It must be a matter of the sensitivity range of the NVG sets used, since the primary problem with lighting is the use of incandescent bulbs which would have a strong IR component. Red lighting should be fine itself as long as it isn't too near-IR, but the sets used probably still have greater sensitivity to it and if you're swapping it out to LEDs anyway, might as well do so to something you won't have to turn down as much!

 

That's a neat picture from the 2000N, and I suspect that's exactly what we'll see. Thanks!

[Harlikwin]

So the real reason for the choice of "color" for the lighting is that those lights are specifically filtered to work with other filters in the NVG. Any "light" in the cockpit you can see unaided is "too bright" for NVG's. Flight rated NVG's have a specific notch filter in the occular lenses that "mostly" blocks out a certain narrow band of light. Then the specific lighting (switches/console lighting/HUD etc) is also set to that frequency. Thus you can see the blue/green light unaided, and its heavily attenuated by the NVG filters.

 

And yes JoJo is right in the sense that the spectral response of NVG's isn't uniform and for Gen3 NVG's ithe quantum efficiency of the photo-cathode is heavily biased toward IR and near IR light.

 

Its basically a rework of every light source in the cockpit. So its not a simple job. Though these days its a fairly standard thing to do. Not so much in the 80's and 90's.

[RedSky]

Its basically a rework of every light source in the cockpit. So its not a simple job. Though these days its a fairly standard thing to do. Not so much in the 80's and 90's.

 

That makes sense. It's definitely somewhat straightforward today at least, where you can buy packages with appropriate lighting and filters to retrofit with from several vendors. I'd imagine sourcing that stuff before was a nightmare, though! I've always wondered about setting up an airplane for NVG usage. It would at the very least provide a margin of safety for night flying in the event of forced landing, but the tradeoffs and training/practice demands aren't worth it for non-emergency/tactical use.

[Harlikwin]

Well the issues in those days is all the tech had to be developed and tested to see what actually worked best. Plus fancy LED's didn't exist. The real magic is in the NVG filters though.

 

Honestly I wouldn't want people to fly on NVG's without extensive training. There are all sorts of visual and spatial perception problems with NODS as well as lots of Do's and Don'ts. Its not like flying in DCS. Even teaching people how to drive at night with nods properly takes some time and practice.