MK5 HEAT rckt effectiveness and accuracy.

[DmitriKozlowsky]

I am questioning MK5 HEAT rocket's effectiveness (in DCS: AB-8B) in killing an armored vehicles. Practicing on range in Mission/Caucass/AGM-65 Practice, but armed with MK HEAT and gun. THe rockets go a little wide, long, short, and it takes two salvos of 6-8 rockets each to get BTR-80 to burn. With proximity hit, and few direct impact.

 

ZUNI on other hand. WHen fired in range on from stable shoot attitude, are like AGM-114 Hellfires. One pair will do a BTR, and T-55. Need a slavo of 4 from close-in range to kill a T-72 or T-80 (or a Western tank), but they do the job.

Kind of wish that US and UK AV-8B Harrier II could employ MBDA Brimstone or Hellfires.

Too bad neither service developed and funded AGM-114K on Harriers.

IMHO, Harrier is too small to carry Mavericks against armor. Against small surface craft and corvette sized naval vessels, AGM-65G is excellent. But AV8 can only carry 4 of them. Maverick is an overkill for anti-armor work.

[Fri13]

The DCS doesn't simulate fragments. And the ground vehicles has a health points that you are consuming by firing at them. The rockets, bombs etc requires (or almost) direct hits to destroy or damage armors well.

 

And the rockets, cannons etc are too effective against MBT's.

 

What you really can use those against, is just the slightly armored tanks like BMP-1, BMP-2, M113, LAV-25 or M2 Bradley etc etc. But you can't really use any of those rockets against MBT unless you can guarantee a hit to very specific position like a engine hatch that will kill the engine.

 

THe ZUNI Mk.24 can penetrate only about 50mm of armor, not enough to even dent a T-55 but can damage fairly easily BMP-2.

 

A Mk.32 in other hand has about 150-450mm armor penetration depending the armor type and angle, but Mk.63 likely is even more effective. But you need almost direct hit with those to the vulnerable parts.

 

Those rockets etc are meant to be area effect. You get general area and you put lots of those there to just get lots of fragments going on, maybe even cause penetration to soil etc and destroy defence positions etc.

 

They are not pinpoint weapons, that is why there are the laser guided variants like Soviet S-8KOR (Ugroza) or APKWS (Advanced Precision Kill Weapon System) that is for Hydra 70 rockets.

 

And that would make all those far more effective as you literally would put the valley of rockets in the CEP of 0.5 meters and cause serious damage.

[*Aquila*]

The DCS doesn't simulate fragments. And the ground vehicles has a health points that you are consuming by firing at them. The rockets, bombs etc requires (or almost) direct hits to destroy or damage armors well.

It's been like you say for 8 years now. One of the most disturbing DCS World's core limitations. And nobody cares. Thank you ED, we love you.

[AeriaGloria]

It’ll be part of the new damage model. I know it’s been a while, but fragmentation is coming

[Fri13]

It’ll be part of the new damage model. I know it’s been a while, but fragmentation is coming

 

Yes, it is coming but since 2017 we have heard about this new damage modeling. And it was again mentioned AFAIK in the last weekend newsletter.

 

Progress has been made, but the problem is as well that we do not really know the backgrounds and the challenges, the choices etc why things takes time.

 

ED is like a common company, secrecy is their key.

 

But when you have someone who can discuss about these things, reveal the complex process etc that is going on, people will relax and they will enjoy about the huge efforts to be made.

 

Like how many has seen now the Oculus Connect 6, Day 2 Keynote from the John Carmack?

 

People really should watch it:

 

 

That is the way how once a year, or even better few times a year someone would explain lots of the background things, the challenges, the ideas tested, tried the limitations here and there, the success and the possibilities etc. If it could be done every quarter in a 10-15 minute manner, it would put so much people in the relaxed state to wait the better things.

 

For years the new damage modeling has been talked about, and problem is not that it is mentioned but that no updates are given when things takes longer etc.

 

 

A normal customer doesn't need those, but enthusiasts and fans do need those things. They feed from those tidbits and updates. It keeps their trust going on.

 

 

When we get these fragmentation modeling, the probabilities of the impact, the fragmentation size, the distance and velocity etc, it will (should) dramatically change the different weapons damages. For the aircrafts that should start to cause huge things as we finally would start to see more of the sub-systems damages and really make a huge difference between flying in perfectly conditioned aircraft and then completely destroyed. So lots of variation.

 

But then for ground units we should see dramatic improvement and effect of the rockets and bombs to most commonly seen tanks (M113, BMP-2, M2 Bradley etc) and other armored vehicles (APC's, SAM's etc) up to the MBT's (Main Battle Tank) where near hits (30 meters or so) can start to have affect to unit capabilities.

 

But before the ground units can get that, we need to have them modeled even in semi-accuracy level. Like get the wheels, tracks, prisms, the engine, radios, crew location/positions and then especially have the crew effects like moral, stress, injury, spotting capabilities etc.

 

As now you would start to have a big benefits with all kind units against each others. Like when a MBT platoon will become under fire of the artillery strike, they will not sit there. They will race out of that location as quickly as they can like crazy F-1 drivers. As single 155mm HE shell hitting 30-50 meters from them can kill a modern MBT to that spot, making it very vulnerable to enemy MBT, aircraft or so on to destroy it in that spot.

 

Knowing that you have a enemy mechanized platoons in specific forests means that you can't see there with your FLIR, you can't drop one bomb there as it can be ineffective, but you know that if you empty there two pods of S-8 HE rockets in that large area, you will get a huge effect on the infantry and even for the vehicles. Knowing a location of the tank like BMP-2 will allow you to put a nice S-8 salvo on that general area and get very big effect on it, and if you hit with a S-8KO it will destroy such thin. A S-8KO has armor penetration about 400mm and S-8T with the tandem HEAT has about 400mm after the ERA.

 

Those rockets has extremely good effect even on the MBT when you start to hit them at the right places, if not by the penetration then at least with huge moral impacts and capability to engage others in combat as they will know they are easy target from the air.

 

And that is similar thing in the ground war as in anti-air, you are not there to destroy targets, you are there to do same thing as with the SEAD, your task is to get the enemy incapable to fight by forcing them to retreat or even surrender.

 

A rocket salvo of S-8 can be devastating for many units, and for lightly or unarmored targets it will be deadly at even close hits (<20-30 meters).

[*Aquila*]

But when you have someone who can discuss about these things, reveal the complex process etc that is going on, people will relax and they will enjoy about the huge efforts to be made.

I was among the first to buy and use the A-10C. 8 years ago IIRC. And the hilarious damage model of bombs and rockets, which don't even kill soft targets without a direct hit, was already the only true limitation to that tremendous module. Oh no, there also was the incredible LOS problems which affected the JTACs on the ground. I have to admit that even with someone who can discuss that with me, I'm becoming really difficult to relax. Because the same old core Bravo Sierra is now affecting some great modules like the one we're talking about here. 8 years later.

[Harlikwin]

I was among the first to buy and use the A-10C. 8 years ago IIRC. And the hilarious damage model of bombs and rockets, which don't even kill soft targets without a direct hit, was already the only true limitation to that tremendous module. Oh no, there also was the incredible LOS problems which affected the JTACs on the ground. I have to admit that even with someone who can discuss that with me, I'm becoming really difficult to relax. Because the same old core Bravo Sierra is now affecting some great modules like the one we're talking about here. 8 years later.

 

Thats not exactly right. Certain weapons have a pretty good kill radius.

 

Recently on an MP server I got a glorious A/A kill with a GBU31, I had targeted some parked vehicles on a farp (ammo truck/fuel truck), and after I dropped it, and enemy huey conveniently landed nearby (not all that close). A few seconds later, BOOM. No fuel truck, no ammo truck, no huey, and apparently there were a bunch of "troops" that got killed too (might have been on the huey?). I giggled alot at that.

 

Different mission, was flying Su25, was taking fire from a woodline near an airbase, for the life of me couldn't see anything down there. Put a KH25L into the woodline, and boom like 4-5 kills. All roughly in the area where I fired the missile.

[Fri13]

Thats not exactly right. Certain weapons have a pretty good kill radius.

 

Recently on an MP server I got a glorious A/A kill with a GBU31, I had targeted some parked vehicles on a farp (ammo truck/fuel truck), and after I dropped it, and enemy huey conveniently landed nearby (not all that close). A few seconds later, BOOM. No fuel truck, no ammo truck, no huey, and apparently there were a bunch of "troops" that got killed too (might have been on the huey?). I giggled alot at that.

 

Different mission, was flying Su25, was taking fire from a woodline near an airbase, for the life of me couldn't see anything down there. Put a KH25L into the woodline, and boom like 4-5 kills. All roughly in the area where I fired the missile.

 

THere are wide area for the damage are of effect done, but it is more of a HE effect than fragmentation that is the deadly part.

 

We are still flying with Health Points of units, once the HP percentage drops below specific value, something happens, be it a slowly consuming like a burning or what ever and unit blows up.

There are some small moral thing like speed to react to target and so on, but nothing serious.

 

What we as well would need is simulation for infantry to dig in. All our infantry is just standing on open, waiting to die. We need animation to get the infantry laying down, crawling and even crouching. And then we need to have a multiplier for the damage for the infantry that is laying down, simulate they have found a nice small dip or hole where they stay, to make them withstanding enemy small arm fire, the fragmentations and HE explosions etc.

 

Get them to peak up when firing etc.

 

As what we as well need is infantry to have a longer firefights than just 2 seconds, but something that last hours even. Reason to get a support vehicles to be in cover, to flank, to call the air support to get the effect on the specific units and have the fight go and go.

 

Even with rockets we wouldn't be there to kill everyone, but maybe one or two, but mainly get a moral impact and capability to continue attack or even retreat to secondary defensive positions.

 

When we get this shift in ground units that they would start to behave realistically, we can have serious effect for ground support, as well for all the rockets and bombs. Not able to kill lots of targets but make the enemy rethink again, to reposition, retreat etc that would be very effective way to support own troops.

 

The fragmentation modeling is against vehicles mainly, be it destroying trucks, a infantry inside a building, a light tanks, damage the SAM missiles vulnerable top of the vehicle etc. It all would have an effect to ground combat that air vehicles should be supporting.

[*Aquila*]

Thats not exactly right. Certain weapons have a pretty good kill radius.

 

Recently on an MP server I got a glorious A/A kill with a GBU31, I had targeted some parked vehicles on a farp (ammo truck/fuel truck), and after I dropped it, and enemy huey conveniently landed nearby (not all that close). A few seconds later, BOOM. No fuel truck, no ammo truck, no huey, and apparently there were a bunch of "troops" that got killed too (might have been on the huey?). I giggled alot at that.

My post was not about the lethal effects of exploding ammo and fuel trucks.

[Britchot]

Recently on an MP server I got a glorious A/A kill with a GBU31...

 

Reminds me of this story: https://www.wearethemighty.com/articles/this-f-15e-scored-an-air-to-air-kill-by-dropping-a-bomb-on-an-iraqi-helicopter

[Harlikwin]

Reminds me of this story: https://www.wearethemighty.com/articles/this-f-15e-scored-an-air-to-air-kill-by-dropping-a-bomb-on-an-iraqi-helicopter

 

Yeah, but he just landed to rearm/refuel. I kinda felt like a dick for doing it for hot second once I stopped laughing.