Roll axis - unusually slow?

[Shimmergloom667]

You should not need any curve with the F-16 as it’s effectively built into the FLCS software. Zero everything out and it should fly ok. I imagine with w stick extension it will feel odd because that’s the exact opposite of what the real F-16 stick is lol.

 

Really, even with Curve 0 it behaves way different than other planes on curve 0. I know, that the Viper does a few things different to begin with, but the common denominator that a lot of people here experience, in that roll input first does basically nothing and then suddenly ALL AT ONCE at one point hints to an actual problm IMHO.

[Deano87]

Really, even with Curve 0 it behaves way different than other planes on curve 0. I know, that the Viper does a few things different to begin with, but the common denominator that a lot of people here experience, in that roll input first does basically nothing and then suddenly ALL AT ONCE at one point hints to an actual problm IMHO.

 

Of course it behaves differently. It has the curve built in. So curve 0 on the F-16 is like curve 20-30 on other aircraft. Use a negative curve to make it feel more linear.

 

For ref I’ve flown it with both FSSB and Warthog with curve set at 0 and it’s felt fine.

[robgraham]

maybe its a bug, but CAT 3 / CAT 1 really impact roll performance.

 

In CAT3 I roll wayy slower than in CAT 1

 

CAT III should reduce rates as it's designed (both are by limiting AOA) to stop the AC from departing while carrying heavy loads, there are a few things that putting the Aircraft into Cat III should do.

 

1. Reduce the maximum AoA to less then 15.8 degrees (which in turn means that your unlikely to get 9G's in it.. you can but as you hit 15 degrees the limiters kick in)

2. Reduce maximum Commanded Roll rate by 40% of CAT I

3. Reduce Rudder Deflection.

[Shimmergloom667]

CAT III should reduce rates as it's designed (both are by limiting AOA) to stop the AC from departing while carrying heavy loads, there are a few things that putting the Aircraft into Cat III should do.

 

1. Reduce the maximum AoA to less then 15.8 degrees (which in turn means that your unlikely to get 9G's in it.. you can but as you hit 15 degrees the limiters kick in)

2. Reduce maximum Commanded Roll rate by 40% of CAT I

3. Reduce Rudder Deflection.

 

Wags said otherwise: https://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=4056954&postcount=9

 

https://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=4056991&postcount=13

[Deano87]

Wags said otherwise: https://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=4056954&postcount=9

 

https://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=4056991&postcount=13

 

Wags was replying to enquiry about CAT III limiting the G you can pull (like happens in the Mirage) , he was explaining that it doesn’t effect the amount of G you can pull, but that it limits AoA and AoA rates. He didn’t mention the CAT III effects on roll, which are as listed above.

[Shimmergloom667]

Wags was replying to enquiry about CAT III limiting the G you can pull (like happens in the Mirage) , he was explaining that it doesn’t effect the amount of G you can pull, but that it limits AoA and AoA rates. He didn’t mention the CAT III effects on roll, which are as listed above.

 

Look at the second post, where he specifically answers with regards to roll.

 

https://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=4056991&postcount=13

[Deano87]

Look at the second post, where he specifically answers with regards to roll.

 

https://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=4056991&postcount=13

 

Well he’s mistaken.

 

In CAT III roll rate is reduced by 40% and that’s how the jet behaves in the sim currently.

[Shimmergloom667]

I tend to rather believe Wags at this point, but we are digressing. Sure hope someone from the team chimes in on the matter. :)

[Deano87]

I tend to rather believe Wags at this point, but we are digressing. Sure hope someone from the team chimes in on the matter. :)

 

Go test it in the sim, and you see it’s true. I’m also looking at the very page in the Flight Manual right now.

[Shimmergloom667]

Oh, I believe you in that it is modeled in the sim. And you are probably indeed looking at the corresponding page in the dash-1 or similar, but is that actually pertaining to a mid 2007 block 50? AFAIK the FLCS has changed over software versions too, which I could see relevant to the roll rate limitations.

 

That said: would you mind bringing that up with Wags? He asked to contact him with information in the other thread.

 

https://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=4057042&postcount=19

[Deano87]

I don’t feel that I need to. The sim matches what I expect, so I don’t see any reason to bring it up as a bug etc.

[Shimmergloom667]

Okay, fair enough.

[robgraham]

I think I'll believe LM's publications over wags, no offense here. Roll rate is LIMITED as part of the AOA there own diagram states such I'm looking at it Roll Axis:

 

Cat I - Maxium Roll rate command decreases with : AOA above 15deg

- speed less tan 250 knots

- horizontal tail deflection more then 5deg trailing edge down

- total tail rudder command (from pilot and FLCS) exeeding 20 degrees

- combinations of horizontal tail greater then 15 degree trailing edge down and AOA above 22degree

 

Cat III - Maximum roll rate command reduced by approximately 40 percent of CAT I authority. Additional decreases as function of AOA, airspeed, horizontal tail position and total rudder command.

 

and the FLCS is behaving correctly for both modes .. one of the things i wanted to check when i started to fly.

[Shimmergloom667]

Like I said, I couldn't comment on that, I tend to trust the developers of this here sim more than other users in this forum - no offense, it's just that I couldn't know where *exactly* you are getting that from (see above: is it the correct documentation for the exact version of our bird etc. etc.).

 

So to you too I would say: would you mind bringing that up with Wags to clear up CAT limitations with regards to roll rate? I have Viper manuals myself, alas no ~2007 block 50 ones.

[Txshooter38]

Flap setting? There is no flap setting in the F-16. It lowers the flaps automatically with gear. Unless you’re talking about one of the emergency modes.

 

 

On my first flight I took off and pulled the gear up. I noticed that the roll rate was limited as described by others in this thread. I started looking at things trying to figure it out which led me to an outside view that showed my flaps still extended.

 

 

 

I would have to go back and look at what I had to switch but it may have been that I programmed to the auto mode. But it was not that way when I found it first flight. (Warthog Hotas) (When I say programmed I mean my flaps switch on the HOTAS)

[Deano87]

On my first flight I took off and pulled the gear up. I noticed that the roll rate was limited as described by others in this thread. I started looking at things trying to figure it out which led me to an outside view that showed my flaps still extended.

 

 

 

I would have to go back and look at what I had to switch but it may have been that I programmed to the auto mode. But it was not that way when I found it first flight. (Warthog Hotas) (When I say programmed I mean my flaps switch on the HOTAS)

 

There is no need to bind a flap control to the HOTAS as during normal operations there should be no need to revert flaps from the normal auto mode.

[Txshooter38]

Ok that helps and is good to know. Maybe I screwed it up by binding something??? I will go back and check. It flew great and rolled great after I got the flaps up!

[Void78]

I haven't noticed that Cat I/III is implemented.True enough i was practicing A/G only so far,but after stores were gone i haven't noticed any difference.

No master warning either.Regarding curves,this is the only plane in which i have default joystick setting from the box(0,100,100,0).

Usually i have small deadzones (2,3,sometimes 4)and curvatures between 15 and 25.:joystick:

It does feel a little sluggish though.

 

 

Edit:Just saw a thread where it says it is implemented.Haven't noticed,and no warnings that you are in the wrong config.

Edited October 4, 2019 by Void78

[robgraham]

So just took the bird up and checked her.. she matches even the 2004 documentation for the FCLS Limiters in both CAT I and CAT III, in all 3 axis. CAT III gives you a 40% reduction in Roll Authority, you go from 225ish +/- 1 to 2 degrees per second to 90 +/- 1 to 2 and if you do the math 225*.4 = 90.

 

The Pitch etc matches the limits as well.. across the board as does slide, actually impressed me a lot because you can watch the bird blend from the 9G limit (which is an actual G limiter) as you cross the 15 Degree mark into the AOA limiter.. same goes for Roll etc.

 

the only part that might be a little maybeish is that 225 roll rate.. that was full stick deflection at 1degree AOA which is 'possibly' 15 degree's slower then it's publically reported weight.. but that could have been due to my speeds as well.

 

edit: though actually a 40% reduction should be 225*.6 right? not 40.. which would have been 135 degrees oer second... it's late my brains not up to maths atm but if it's 225*.6 then there is a bug.. if it's 225*.4 then there's not *shrugs*

Edited October 4, 2019 by robgraham

[Shimmergloom667]

Great, thanks for the info. Will run through more testing and tweak that curve specifically. Again, thanks a lot!

[mattag08]

The stores matter. Try it again with a clean jet. The roll rate is snappy.

[Shimmergloom667]

I did, still was surprisingly weird behaviour in commanding the roll rate, wanted to clarify, nothing more :)

[gitbse]

I have the same setup, a MCG pro with the extension. I noticed it felt sluggish out of the box as well.

 

However, the Viper flies with a pressure stick, and the FM seems to replicate that. Say, vs the hornet which models a 1:1 movement of my stick to the cockpit stick pretty well.

 

I changed my X axis saturation to about 70% with 10% curve, and it's perfect. The X saturation seems to make up for the input difference.

[sze5003]

I have the same setup, a MCG pro with the extension. I noticed it felt sluggish out of the box as well.

 

 

 

However, the Viper flies with a pressure stick, and the FM seems to replicate that. Say, vs the hornet which models a 1:1 movement of my stick to the cockpit stick pretty well.

 

 

 

I changed my X axis saturation to about 70% with 10% curve, and it's perfect. The X saturation seems to make up for the input difference.

Does changing the x saturation and curve in the F16 sim controls section change it for every other airframe?

 

I would imagine it only binds it for the f16 ?