[REPORTED]PG Airbase/Airport Takeoff from ramp issue

[cailean_556]

An ongoing issue with the Persian Gulf map has been the inability to enable larger aircraft (C-130s and larger) to start from the ramp at some airports/airbases in the Persian Gulf. When C-130s (or larger) are set to start from ramp on certain airfields, they default to Kerman, Shiraz or the major airports/airbases in the UAE depending on what (appears) is closer.

 

After doing some research, I have come up with the following information regarding aircraft capabilities at certain airfields and measured some of the airbases in the Persian Gulf by using the available tool in the DCS mission editor from threshold to threshold - which is not the entire runway of some airfields.

 

The C-130 is reported to need a take off run of up to 1500m, the Il-76 is reported to need a 1600m - or greater - take off run. Both of these figures are in unspecified weather conditions with unspecified weights.

 

Information regarding aircraft such as the Tu-95 and Tu-160 varies, however it is understood that the Tu-95 requires under 3500m, given the Ukrainka bomber base (which is, or at least was, home to a Tu-95 squadron) has a reported runway length of 3500m. The Tu-160 reportedly requires a runway length of 3050m, this is assumed at maximum weight.

 

Al Bateen in the UAE exhibits this behaviour despite having a 2500m+ runway in DCS (more than enough for UAE AF C-130s and C-17s) and being the home of the UAE AFs C-130/transport fleet in reality.

 

Bandar Abbas, Kish International Airport, Lar Airbase, Sirri Island and Tunb Island AFB in Iran also have this behaviour. All of these airfields have runways that are large enough to support C-130s or larger aircraft such as Il-76/78s. Especially the international airports, such as Bandar Abbas and Kish International.

 

Bandar Abbas is a major international airport and IRIAF airbase. While its dual runways are just under 3500m in length, this airport plays host to aircraft as large as the 747 and is also more than adequate for C-130 and larger aircraft (though perhaps not a fully laden Tu-95/Tu-160).

 

Kish International has two runways both over 3600m - more than adequate for a C-130 and Il-76 and, while I don't have verified numbers for the Tu-95 or Tu-160, at over 3500m it is likely these aircraft could also take off from Kish International also.

 

Lar Airbase, as it is portrayed in DCS, has a runway length of over 3100m. Again, this is more than adequate for military cargo aircraft.

 

Sirri and Tunb AFB both feature runways over 1900m (Sirri Island is over 2000m). While this is not suitable for larger strategic aircraft, it is more than adequate for military cargo/transport aircraft such as the An-26, C-130 or Il-76 (and/or derivatives).

 

Basically, if an airfield runway is over 2000m in length, it *should* be able to handle military cargo aircraft. If a runway is over 3200m in length, it *should* be able to accommodate strategic bomber-sized aircraft. While this is true of Al Dhafra, Al Minhad, Dubai International, Shiraz and Kerman, it is not reflected accurately (according to available information) for other airfields in the Persian Gulf map.

[Netsk]

The issue is actually not with the runways at all. If you set them to take off from runway an Il-76 will even take off from Lavan Island Airport, no prob. It will even land and stop in adequate time. The issue is that there are no parking spaces modeled for those larger aircraft. That's why they can't be assigned to take off from ramp and that's why they will disappear after they land.

 

You have same problem with Mi-8, Mi-26, CH-47 and any other larger helicopter too, try and see. It's a super annoying problem though and I'm baffled why ED is not prioritizing this issue more.

Edited November 20, 2019 by Netsk

[BIGNEWY]

Hi I have reported this to be tweaked, some of the larger airfields should accommodate transport aircraft.

 

Thank you

[cailean_556]

The issue is actually not with the runways at all. If you set them to take off from runway an Il-76 will even take off from Lavan Island Airport, no prob. It will even land and stop in adequate time. The issue is that there are no parking spaces modeled for those larger aircraft. That's why they can't be assigned to take off from ramp and that's why they will disappear after they land.

 

You have same problem with Mi-8, Mi-26, CH-47 and any other larger helicopter too, try and see. It's a super annoying problem though and I'm baffled why ED is not prioritizing this issue more.

 

Hey Netsk, yeah I know the problem isn't with the runway - the comment about runway length was basically to highlight the capabilities of aircraft. An airport that has a runway of (x) length should be coded to allow for larger aircraft - especially international airports and major airbases.

 

I've noticed that, for larger aircraft, they will land at airfields that don't support their parking and despawn off the runway.

 

At least BIGNEWY has said they'll look at tweaking it - that's all we can ask.

[funkyfranky]

Hi I have reported this to be tweaked, some of the larger airfields should accommodate transport aircraft.

 

Thank you

There are lots of parking spot issues on multiple maps. What exactly has been reported to the team to be tweaked?

[BIGNEWY]

There are lots of parking spot issues on multiple maps. What exactly has been reported to the team to be tweaked?

 

DLC Maps » DCS: Persian Gulf » Bugs and Problems » [REPORTED]PG Airbase/Airport Takeoff from ramp issue

 

I have asked the team to check Persian Gulf airports which should be able to accommodate transport aircraft.

 

If you have another issue please post in the appropriate area of the forum and I will check it, thank you.

[Netsk]

Hi I have reported this to be tweaked, some of the larger airfields should accommodate transport aircraft.

 

Thank you

 

Thank you!! :thumbup:

[cailean_556]

On 11/26/2019 at 8:30 PM, BIGNEWY said:

 

DLC Maps » DCS: Persian Gulf » Bugs and Problems » [REPORTED]PG Airbase/Airport Takeoff from ramp issue

 

I have asked the team to check Persian Gulf airports which should be able to accommodate transport aircraft.

 

If you have another issue please post in the appropriate area of the forum and I will check it, thank you.

Hi BN,

Yes, this is technically a necro... However instead of raise a new post, figured I'd simply add to this one... Has anything actually been done, or in the pipeline, regarding this? I know the ED office(s) are probably all kinds of crazy with 4 new planes and as many new maps being announced but while working on some stuff tonight, I've come across this issue and it reminded me to chase it up.

If you look at Bandar Abbas on Google Maps right now, there's a Boeing 777 and a Boeing 737 currently parked in what is essentially B01 and B02 on the DCS: Persian Gulf representation of Bandar Abbas. There is also a P-3 and what looks to be a Fokker F.27 Friendship parked in F09 and F17 respectively.

The larger, longer runway (21L/03R) is approximately 12,000ft in length (at least in DCS). The Boeing 777 requires about 6100ft to land, and about 11,600ft to take off at MTW. The P-3, F.27 (neither in DCS, yet) and C-130H (which is in DCS) all require significantly less, even at MTW. The E-3A, or rather the B707-320B, requires 10,000ft for take off and 5900ft to land... A fully-laden KC-135 would require practically the entire runway to take off (although the ones in DCS I believe are the re-engined Rs, so they would perform better in this regard).

Considering we're getting a C-130J at some point in the future, has this placed more of an emphasis on ED correcting what can spawn/take off and from where on all the current (and future) maps?

Having the C-130s fly out of Kerman or Shiraz isn't practical for what I'm trying to do, and having them fly out of Ras Al Khaimah will see them getting shot down by Patriot SAMs...

Thanks in advance.

[Flappie]

Excellent point. I've just bumped the initial report and I'll do the same for other terrains.

[cailean_556]

*Checks calendar*

I know there's a whole lot of other, more complicated, things going in with DCS right now...but C-130s in vicinity of Bandar Abbas still teleport to Ras Al Khaimah when you set them to start from the ramp - with the intention of having them start at Bandar Abbas...

I don't know how far away the C-130J is from seeing the light of day in DCS, but this has been a thing (from my end) since November 2019.

Is amending the map a ridiculously complex task (such as 'unpacking' the entire map, tweaking some values then 'repacking' the map) for something I *without inside knowledge* would consider 'small' or is it a more simple matter of tweaking a couple lines of code in a lua/dll/ini file somewhere?

I would have considered this a 'quick win', but without understanding how the process works I'm just sitting here wondering if this is really by design, or an oversight that keeps getting overlooked because more important things are always popping up.

Thanks in advance.

Edited April 12 by cailean_556

[Exorcet]

Bandar Abbas is a weird place. Not only with the large aircraft parking issue, but there are only 3 spaces on the south end of the airport. If the wind blows the wrong way the AI will spend forever taxiing for takeoff. Because of this I've been forced to use the same weather for nearly every mission. DCS airport operations need an overhaul.

[cailean_556]

9 hours ago, Exorcet said:

Bandar Abbas is a weird place. Not only with the large aircraft parking issue, but there are only 3 spaces on the south end of the airport. If the wind blows the wrong way the AI will spend forever taxiing for takeoff. Because of this I've been forced to use the same weather for nearly every mission. DCS airport operations need an overhaul.

I actually experienced something interesting at Kerman - high winds basically stopped the aircraft from taxiing off the runway. Because Kerman is higher in altitude than Bandar Abbas, I didn't notice any issue until I sat down and thought about the weather (wind in particular). It also appears to work on a plane by plane basis, so the aircrafts weight might come into play there too (i.e. after lowering the wind a bit, Mirage F1s could taxi but F-5s couldn't then I lowered the value a few knots more and F-5s could taxi). Seems anything over 20 knots at the altitude the airbase is at seems to make the AI not want to play.

I can get by with only 3 "big" ramp spots at Bandar Abbas (though agree there could be, and would like, at least a couple more), but what I cannot for the life of me understand is how/why aircraft such as C-130s and larger aren't, or can't be, set to start from ramp (or land and park) at airbases where they clearly have the room to. C-130s, Il-76/78, E-3, KC-135 - aircraft like this take off and land at Bandar Abbas in reality every day. The IRIAF even operates at least one 707 - which is the airframe the E-3 and KC-135 are based on.

If you're trying to do historically based/inspired missions/campaigns in the Persian Gulf, or making something completely fictional using the area as a stand in, anything larger than an An-26 has to come from Shiraz or Kerman if it's flying from the Iranian side of the map, or set to take off from runway. Which is fine, unless you want it to taxi for whatever reason (dialogue, visual cues, set/activate triggers, that sort of thing).

[Exorcet]

24 minutes ago, cailean_556 said:

I actually experienced something interesting at Kerman - high winds basically stopped the aircraft from taxiing off the runway. Because Kerman is higher in altitude than Bandar Abbas, I didn't notice any issue until I sat down and thought about the weather (wind in particular).

That's interesting. The primary issue I've faced is taxi time as the AI only ever taxis at 16 knots. It doesn't matter if 100 bombers are coming to wipe their airbase off the map, they take their time. I sat down and played with wind settings until I found one that was a good compromise and have used it since. I guess I was lucky that I didn't put the wind high enough for this to happen.

The parking situation can be frustrating for sure. Iran has a decent amount of airbases, but the usable number can shrink fast when you consider parking and AI taxi routes. I've also felt the limitations with transports as they're an important aircraft type if you want to have lively campaign. I've resorted to air starts and despawns in some cases as a workaround, also starting/despawning aircraft from the missing airports on the map, but I prefer to have ground based start up and taxi if possible. And ending a flight with a landing waypoint is just plain faster than setting up despawn triggers or adding a lua script to the destroy the unit at the end, even if only slightly faster.