AIM-54A in STT and TWS

[captain_dalan]

I didn’t notice AI going defensive when targeted in TWS, not on launching missiles.

 

In past experience, analysing TacView replay, they rather go defensive when missile incoming is within 10Nm.

They even don’t go defensive on Fox 1 launch at range > 10 Nm, which can make them vulnerable at high altitude.

Didn’t notice any change with Tomcat.

 

They must have changed that in the mean time. Ever since i started BVR training few months ago, the AI always exhibited the same behavior:

 

 

It's a bit tricky, but with some practice and experience it does work to keep such contacts within the radar limits in RWS/TWS mode. You have to stay on the ball in regards to your elevation adjustment though. It's easier if you keep the azimuth scan zone small, so you can scan more elevation bars quicker.

 

It's doubly so with Jester. Especially once the fight comes closer then 45-50NM the only game you have is co altitude and that leads to some serious meta-tactics. Maybe TWS Auto will change this. We'll see

[jojo]

What you need to check is missile to target range when the target goes defensive.

From your video, I would say this is wait I said.

 

Plus rushing hard with full burner after missile launch isn’t a good idea.

Vs a single target, a STT lock prior to launch will give you better tracking, possibility to crank (lower closing speed), and follow on shot capacity if first AIM-54 fails.

[sBryansGames]

It's a bit tricky, but with some practice and experience it does work to keep such contacts within the radar limits in RWS/TWS mode. You have to stay on the ball in regards to your elevation adjustment though. It's easier if you keep the azimuth scan zone small, so you can scan more elevation bars quicker.

I should have been more specific. I meant when fireing off AIM-54s in STT. So as not to form bad habbits before it is modeled correctly.

[captain_dalan]

What you need to check is missile to target range when the target goes defensive.

From your video, I would say this is wait I said.

 

But i did man. That video is taken in real time. The AI starts pumping chaff as soon as the missile leaves the rails. In the first hop i launched as soon as a broke 50NM and in the 2nd as a broke 35NM. In the 2nd case he even starts going into a notch immediately after i launch. That means the AI knows it's being fired upon regardless of which mode you are in, making TWS shots waste of ammo for the most part (as they are now).

 

 

Plus rushing hard with full burner after missile launch isn’t a good idea.

Vs a single target, a STT lock prior to launch will give you better tracking, possibility to crank (lower closing speed), and follow on shot capacity if first AIM-54 fails.

 

Nah, of course it isn't. Bus as i mentioned in the video, i didn't make to demonstrate BVR tactics, but AI behavior. The STT does give you a better more stable lock, but it also commits you follow the missile all the way in. I mean, not right now, as stated above, right now the missile is active all the time, but i'm training for the time when losing STT for any reason, will mean losing the missile as well. Besides, as stated in the original post, i have noticed a surprising tendency for both A and C variants to eat CM at a very similar rate. I haven't done enough tests (as in over 70 each) in controlled environment to be able to apply statistical model to this tendency, but i did fire about 20-24 shots of each and it seams the seeker gets fooled in 80-90% of the time for both missile variants, despite the fact that i kept the STT lock at all times.

 

If you don't believe me try it your self. Setup a simple mission like the one before. I have ones in which i fire at 80, 70, 60, 50, 40 and 30 NM. In all the cases the AI acts the same. It acts the same even if you fire a smokeless AIM 54C at it. Which spoofs the idea that it spots the missile exhaust. Not that it should spot it as soon the missile is fired at 40 NM anyways.

[jojo]

But i did man. That video is taken in real time. The AI starts pumping chaff as soon as the missile leaves the rails. In the first hop i launched as soon as a broke 50NM and in the 2nd as a broke 35NM. In the 2nd case he even starts going into a notch immediately after i launch. That means the AI knows it's being fired upon regardless of which mode you are in, making TWS shots waste of ammo for the most part (as they are now).

 

I did, but we were noy talking about the same thing.

 

Watching TacView replay, you are right, they start chaff on missile launch, which is weird.

But they start defensive manouvres much later, at a point were the Phoenix might be active.

More like 20Nm than 10Nm, but I don't know what is AIM-54's seeker range ?

[captain_dalan]

I did, but we were noy talking about the same thing.

 

Watching TacView replay, you are right, they start chaff on missile launch, which is weird.

But they start defensive manouvres much later, at a point were the Phoenix might be active.

More like 20Nm than 10Nm, but I don't know what is AIM-54's seeker range ?

 

What if (and this is just maybe) right now they don't really have a min range? So the AI just picks them up right away being active all the time as they are?

[QuiGon]

I should have been more specific. I meant when fireing off AIM-54s in STT. So as not to form bad habbits before it is modeled correctly.

I don't see what would change in this regard once the Phoenix gets modeled correctly?

[captain_dalan]

I don't see what would change in this regard once the Phoenix gets modeled correctly?

Well, if i got things right as of now, you can fire the AIM-54 in STT, and then if for any reason the lock gets broken (on purpose or not) the missile will still guide as it is active from the launch. Once it works as intended, it will no longer do this and you gonna have to commit to it all the way to impact.

[QuiGon]

Well, if i got things right as of now, you can fire the AIM-54 in STT, and then if for any reason the lock gets broken (on purpose or not) the missile will still guide as it is active from the launch. Once it works as intended, it will no longer do this and you gonna have to commit to it all the way to impact.

Oh, STT. I thought the talks was about TWS :doh:

Yeah, in regards to STT this is true indeed.

[draconus]

However... new behaviour will include:

 

• PDSTT with range >10NM: LTE 3s, loft, SARH/DL, missile does not go active (SARH/DL all the way to target)
  
• TWS or PDSTT with range <10NM, or PH ACT selected: LTE 3s, no loft, active directly after launch
  
• PSTT or BRSIT or (ACM cover up with no track or PSTT or PDSTT): LTE 1s (unless STT and angle >15deg then 3s), no loft, active immediately
  

so it depends if PD-STT or P-STT and range. Edited February 4, 2020 by draconus

[captain_dalan]

Oh, STT. I thought the talks was about TWS :doh:

Yeah, in regards to STT this is true indeed.

 

Nah, no biggie! I actually started the thread that way, by asking if there is actually any difference in guidance reliability (chaff rejection and counter notching) between the two modes.

 

Come to think of it, no one came to answer that question yet