Real BVR tactics?

[GVO]

Hello everyone,

 

Does anyone know where I can find some info, videos, documents about which tactics are used in real life BVR? Especially for Fox 1 scenarios but also Fox 3.

 

Besides wanting to learn about this topic, I'm also interested what pilots would do in real life. I mean, in DCS it's risk free to crank incoming missiles or whatever maneuvers we do in the sim :)

 

Have a great weekend,

GVO

Edited February 1, 2020 by GVO

[Nexus-6]

"FOX 2" indicates the launch of an infrared missile. That's hardly BVR.

 

Maybe you just meant BFM?

[GVO]

Yeah sorry, meant Fox 1 :) Will edit my post

[Below Average]

Hello everyone,

 

Does anyone know where I can find some info, videos, documents about which tactics are used in real life BVR? Especially for Fox 1 scenarios but also Fox 3.

 

Besides wanting to learn about this topic, I'm also interested what pilots would do in real life. I mean, in DCS it's risk free to crank incoming missiles or whatever maneuvers we do in the sim :)

 

Have a great weekend,

GVO

 

https://www.cnatra.navy.mil/local/docs/pat-pubs/P-825.pdf

 

Here is the basic principles. However your not going to get real life timelines and tactics. Those sir are not public.

[GVO]

https://www.cnatra.navy.mil/local/docs/pat-pubs/P-825.pdf

 

Here is the basic principles. However your not going to get real life timelines and tactics. Those sir are not public.

 

Thank you, I will definitely read that!

 

I guess, I'm looking for more overall mindset/tactic on how to approach BVR. Lets say it's a 2-ship vs. 2-ship. What formation should your wingman be in.

If the bogeys gets the first shot, what would be "normal" practice, e.g. turning 180, cranking or something else?

Would you fire a missile out of range to put the bogey on the defensive? Works in DCS but would you do that in real life?

 

It's just questions coming up, as I try to get deeper in BVR :)

There is plenty of good tutorials on most things but haven't seen many on this topic.

[jojo]

Out of range shot probably wouldn’t work against skilful adversary.

 

In fact you need a lot of intel data. IRL there are intel guys doing briefing for specifics threats.

Your reaction will depend on missile launch parameters.

The higher and the faster the shooter is, the better is missile range.

 

From kinematic point of view:

At max range a crank may be enough.

At lower range, a crank may be enough.

Even lower you may need to make left and right turns to exhaust missile.

Past a certain range, 180° turn (pump) may be the only option to survive.

 

Seeker point of view:

- the beam is a good option to defeat guidance system. Fox 1 you need to beam fire control radar. With Fox 3 you need to beam the incoming missile. But this is kind of last chance manoeuvre Vs Fox 3, let’s say when it’s too late to pump.

You can also try to beam fire control radar before Fox 3 goes active on you.

- use chaff during beaming, not while you are “hot” relatively to the target.

- go down during beaming to force look down on enemy radar.

 

There is no absolute rule for formation, it depends on the tactical situation, and if you have human wingman or AI.

Flying in line formation (wall) will maximise fire power.

But a wingman in trail can cover you. Very useful when you try to recommit after a pump.

 

“Grinder” is a useful Fox 3 tactic. The 2 fighters fly an orbit with hot branch toward the threat.

When one is hot the other is cold.

 

Yes, firing missiles to disrupt enemy formation is useful. But it will work better if you are in range.

 

Phoenix is great because of its range. In HA it’s already dangerous at from 50Nm.

It can be avoided, but the enemy will have to manoeuvre seriously.

 

Currently, since TWS Auto doesn’t work in game, it’s difficult to crank when shooting in TWS.

But you can when firing in STT.

[paulferris]

Hello everyone,

 

Does anyone know where I can find some info, videos, documents about which tactics are used in real life BVR? Especially for Fox 1 scenarios but also Fox 3.

 

Besides wanting to learn about this topic, I'm also interested what pilots would do in real life. I mean, in DCS it's risk free to crank incoming missiles or whatever maneuvers we do in the sim :)

 

Have a great weekend,

GVO

 

 

Try this - often recommended as the standard text:

 

ADMIN EDIT: Please do not share links that infringe on copyright. The Book mentioned was Fighter Combat: Tactics and Maneuvering by Robert Shaw.

Edited February 7, 2020 by IronMike

[r4y30n]

How is that legal? It's an entire copyrighted book posted online for free...

[QuiGon]

Such tactics stuff is usally classified, so you won't find much specific on that in the public realm, just some general information.

 

This podcast episode might be interesting for you: https://www.fighterpilotpodcast.com/episodes/071-air-to-air-mission-planning/