RWR sound for launch of semi active radar missiles - how and is it realistic?

[Bunny Clark]

Realy? So why do they show up both as 29 on the RWR?

That's a question for ED, or someone who knows a lot more about the mechanics of these radar sets than I do :P

[b101uk]

The ability for a RWR to alert a pilot to an missile in the air receiving mid-course guidance is not something that's modeled in DCS, and not a function that is supported by any publicly available documentation that I'm aware of. That's not to say that RWRs don't have such a capability, since there is a lot about them that is not available publicly nor have I probably read everything that is public.

 

Such a function would have fairly limited usefulness though. For a missile launched in a TWS mode a RWR may be able to detect missile guidance transmissions, but it would have no way of knowing which aircraft is the target. A missile could be launched on you, your wingman, or another flight 40 miles away and you would get such an alert just the same.

 

Having the situational awareness to know when an enemy aircraft is close enough to engage you, and to know when they've committed on you, is far more important. If you're ever surprised by a missile launch against you, you've already lost the situational awareness game badly.

 

 

 

not all datalink are broadcast by omni-directional means, some datalink are highly directional for example AESA mounts have this capability, and well there is reasonable probability that if you detect a radar source and a highly directed datalink emanating from similar position, then it must be broadcasting to something if you are looking at a 1 on 1 situation.

 

 

on the other hand in a 2 on 1 situation launching off one and handing off data link to the other that is laterally separated would put the datalink broadcast outside of the targets detection or at worst radar emanating from one place and some other broadcast from another place, given ultimately an extra 10mile hop in a datalink signal is inconsequential, especially if that hop is to another aircraft that could be tracking in a passive mode using the reflected radar signal from the first, thus providing an additional point of reference in 3d space.

[Bunny Clark]

not all datalink are broadcast by omni-directional means, some datalink are highly directional for example AESA mounts have this capability, and well there is reasonable probability that if you detect a radar source and a highly directed datalink emanating from similar position, then it must be broadcasting to something if you are looking at a 1 on 1 situation.

My understanding is most data link / command guidance is sent using the radar antenna or a secondary antenna attached to the radar gimbal, so it's likely to be at least somewhat directional. It can't be too directional though, since missiles don't fly in a strait line between aircraft and you wouldn't want the missile to fly out of the guidance signal in an STT launch. In a TWS launch though, the radar beam will be sweeping back and forth across the scan volume and anything in that scan range will pick up the guidance signal.

[Harlikwin]

How a modern RWR processes and interprets radar signals is one of the most highly classified of all military secrets. Anyone who knows what they’re actually talking about isn’t going to post about it. Anyone who’s posting doesn’t have any idea what they’re actually talking about. Enjoy your game.

 

Well, its an amusing post... Plenty is known and published about it though, at least for older systems. If anything is classified its the nitty gritty hardware details that are irrelevant for DCS.

[GGTharos]

It's purposefully the opposite of directional.

 

My understanding is most data link / command guidance is sent using the radar antenna or a secondary antenna attached to the radar gimbal, so it's likely to be at least somewhat directional. It can't be too directional though, since missiles don't fly in a strait line between aircraft and you wouldn't want the missile to fly out of the guidance signal in an STT launch. In a TWS launch though, the radar beam will be sweeping back and forth across the scan volume and anything in that scan range will pick up the guidance signal.

[GGTharos]

on the other hand in a 2 on 1 situation launching off one and handing off data link to the other

 

... and which AI radar implements this often-described fantasy? :)

 

especially if that hop is to another aircraft that could be tracking in a passive mode using the reflected radar signal from the first, thus providing an additional point of reference in 3d space.

 

... or this one?

[VpR81]

That's a question for ED, or someone who knows a lot more about the mechanics of these radar sets than I do :P

 

ED is not the only one using the 29 as symbol for both, MiG 29 and Su-27, on the RWR. That Falcon, uhm ooops F-16 sim i was addicted to for years did as well. This little inaccuracy is realy interesting and i wonder why ED does not take care of it. Sure, not a top priority but still strange. Does anyone know if the real Hornet/Viper have the correct symbols on the RWR?

[Ahmed]

Does anyone know if the real Hornet/Viper have the correct symbols on the RWR?

 

I'm afraid that stuff about the threat libraries (and generally most of the EW related stuff) is one of those highly classified matters...

[b101uk]

... and which AI radar implements this often-described fantasy? :)

 

 

 

... or this one?

 

 

 

and yet in the modern theatre of war for the past 30+ years weapon hand-off is nothing new, neither is integrating information from multiple sources to accurately depict in real-time the location of many things that would otherwise be unseen from your own point of view.

 

 

 

 

if you can make a dumb Mk 8# bomb hit a precise set of coordinates with a $20k USD guidance kit using nothing more than a radio of me telling you some coordinates to program in and launch, imagen what a $1,000,000+ USD missile can do with a data link between aircraft costing $200,000,000+.

 

 

 

 

you should see what we do in precision farming with data link and precision guidance ;)

[GGTharos]

Sorry, I read precision farming and my mind went straight to farming operations with drones :D

 

As far as I know, none of the aircraft represented in DCS are capable of an AI hand-off, not in the automated way people imagine.

And any technology that exists for air to air today that is capable of it is rare.

 

Ship/Land based of any x-to-surface, sure, but AAMs I haven't heard anything other than some rumors regarding the latest 120s, and even this is lacking in detail. And the lack of hand-off in-flight in particular was there because specific technical reasons as well.

[b101uk]

given aircraft that had the first iterations of the capability have already retired some 10 years ago and that the 120's have had the capability for more than 20 years, and even at the longest ranges of the 120's BVR engagement you are only talking 2 or 3 mid-course updates we are not talking about anything remotely complex, its not as if the mid-course updates have to be absurdly precise in 3d space either given a few hundred meters of error are hardly going to be putting an aircraft outside the 120's own seeker FOV by the time it switches to its own guidance.

 

 

dose the F/A-18C have a data link - yes

dose the F/A-18C provide mid course corrections - yes

do the 120's accept mid course corrections - yes

do the 120's accept mid course corrections from other than the launch platform - yes

 

 

given the yes's above is it conceptually hard - no

[FoxAlfa]

I knew about the RWR has a database containing radar signatures of different aircrafts, that Su-27 and MiG 29 both show up as 29 on the RWR as they share the same radar and so on...

 

Although the 27 and 29 don't use the same radar... the wave that radar emits is exactly the same, for a quite oblivious reason, it is meant to guide the same Missile, the R-27.

 

That is why RWR can't tell them apart, the wave itself only differs in signal strength due to Sukhoi having a larger antenna, so the correct behavior for RWR would be different position for the 29 mark for the Su-27 and MiG-29 which are at the same range.

 

For the primary topic, the launch is very much a thing for SARH SAMs and the Aim-7 (additional antenna and wave on launch) that quite detectable change the wave pattern, its again that the waters get muddier for soviet missiles.

 

Namely lot of things for Soviet SARH AIMs (R-3R, R-24, R-27...) point that guidance information is added to the wave on STT lock ( NATO doctrine of '80ies to treat STT as Missile Launch, no way to force 'fake' launch in the Soviet manuals for test or training purposes, instruction to relock STT if target dropped, indication there is no change in wave for R-3R guidance) but I haven't be able to find a concrete diagram to show one or the other.

 

Again ED probably has more exec information, or due to the SARH implementation being rather old in DCS it might as well be that 'one size fits all approach' has been used.

Edited February 10, 2020 by FoxAlfa

[GGTharos]

given aircraft that had the first iterations of the capability have already retired some 10 years ago and that the 120's have had the capability for more than 20 years,

 

They've had a 'wingman number' which was used very specifically to avoid the wrong plane guiding the missile via datalink. There's nothing to suggest that it can be used for hand-off, as that depends on other factors.

 

and even at the longest ranges of the 120's BVR engagement you are only talking 2 or 3 mid-course updates we are not talking about anything remotely complex

 

The update is every frame for TWS, and probably as fast as it can go in STT, at least going by the manuals I've been able to get my hands on.

 

its not as if the mid-course updates have to be absurdly precise in 3d space either given a few hundred meters of error are hardly going to be putting an aircraft outside the 120's own seeker FOV by the time it switches to its own guidance.

 

And yet things are being made more precise.

 

dose the F/A-18C have a data link - yes

dose the F/A-18C provide mid course corrections - yes

do the 120's accept mid course corrections - yes

do the 120's accept mid course corrections from other than the launch platform - yes

 

 

given the yes's above is it conceptually hard - no

 

Conceptually is meaningless, conceptually everyone and everything has a datalink, can lock after launch and so on and so forth. It's just not what happens IRL.

[GGTharos]

Although the 27 and 29 don't use the same radar... the wave that radar emits is exactly the same,

 

No. And BTW, the R-27 is tuned to the radar on rail, like every other SARH AAM out there. So no, it doesn't need to be 'the same wave'.

 

That is why RWR can't tell them apart

 

Yes it can - PRFs and other fun stuff tends to be adjusted to match the hardware, and that hardware is definitely different enough. But better yet, we've had operators flat out say they're differentiated on their RWR.

[FoxAlfa]

No. And BTW, the R-27 is tuned to the radar on rail, like every other SARH AAM out there. So no, it doesn't need to be 'the same wave'.

 

The correction information is added to the half cycle of the radar wave that has been established, unlike AIM-7 that requires separate hardware that is turn on launch. One SARH not necessarily equals other SARH operation

 

And of-course R-27 is tuned on the rail, but is tuned to the same thing, no reason to have it different things to guide the same rocket.

 

Point when is the information added is disputed (some say on STT, some say on launch, and I am sure you have your opinion.) if on STT -> not launch detection, if on launch -> launch detection.

 

Captain Scott Speicher clearly didn't know he was launched on by R-40.

 

Yes it can - PRFs and other fun stuff tends to be adjusted to match the hardware, and that hardware is definitely different enough. But better yet, we've had operators flat out say they're differentiated on their RWR.

 

The Su-27 family has a wide array of radars, some of them quite differ from the N019 so for sure some version can be told apart, but for the late 80's versions we have currently in DCS I highly doubt.

Edited February 10, 2020 by FoxAlfa

[b101uk]

They've had a 'wingman number' which was used very specifically to avoid the wrong plane guiding the missile via datalink. There's nothing to suggest that it can be used for hand-off, as that depends on other factors.

 

 

 

The update is every frame for TWS, and probably as fast as it can go in STT, at least going by the manuals I've been able to get my hands on.

 

 

 

And yet things are being made more precise.

 

 

 

Conceptually is meaningless, conceptually everyone and everything has a datalink, can lock after launch and so on and so forth. It's just not what happens IRL.

 

 

 

1: you need to do more research.

 

 

 

 

2: there is no need for updates every frame.

 

 

 

 

3: the point clearly went clearly above your head.

 

 

 

 

4: it is conceptually not meaningless, unless again it goes above your head.

[Ahmed]

Captain Scott Speicher clearly didn't know he was launched on by R-40.

 

The thing is also than in pc simulators we are to used as having perfect RWRs with perfect libraries. They detect everything, there are never ambiguities. Even they can discern between a missile launch on your wingman flying fingertip and you (this last one is a shame as it was working more or less realistically previously in the DCS Hornet but it got changed' a few months ago).

[Bunny Clark]

given the yes's above is it conceptually hard - no

 

I hate these "it's just common sense it would work this way" arguments. The real engineering for all of these systems is always far more complex than most people realize. Does anyone have any documentation that mid-flight handoff of missile guidance is possible in the Hornet, or any other aircraft? How is it accomplished in the aircraft? What DDI buttons are pressed? How does it actually work?

 

I'm not saying I don't think it's possible - I'm just saying I don't know and I don't think guessing is useful. I've never seen any hard documentation on it, but if there is any I'd love to read it.

 

Although the 27 and 29 don't use the same radar... the wave that radar emits is exactly the same, for a quite oblivious reason, it is meant to guide the same Missile, the R-27.

100% Wrong. There are tons of radar sets that have been deployed in the last 3 decades that are capable of guiding the R-27, and most of them seem to be distinguishable from each other. Why can those be told apart but the N001 and N019 can't be? Further, the R-27 does not simply guide on the PD-STT waves used for radar track. The PDI signal used for missile guidance is entirely different than the STT signal used to track a target. Not only is PDI better designed for missile guidance, it is coded so that missiles can distinguish between targets illuminated by the launching aircraft and targets being illuminated by other aircraft guiding R-27s at the same time.

 

That is why RWR can't tell them apart, the wave itself only differs in signal strength due to Sukhoi having a larger antenna

This is the sort of thing that makes me skeptical about this. Changing the size of a dish antenna does a lot more than change the amplitude of the signal. The size of the beam, side-lobe distortion, frequency response, and scan rate can all easily be affected by a change in antenna size - even if all the other electronic components stay the same.

 

But again, I don't know. Maybe the two waveforms are so similar they can't be reliably told apart. It just seems unlikely to me.

 

Captain Scott Speicher clearly didn't know he was launched on by R-40.

How can you know that? Scott is dead and never told anyone what happened inside his plane. The fact that radar pulse signatures change with moving from a tracking mode to missile guidance mode is well established. But, that said, radars and warning receivers are complex systems and there are a myriad of ways RWRs can fail to detect something.

[Kev2go]

Yup, the MiG-29 uses the N019 Rubin and the Su-27 uses the N001 Mech. The two radars share a lot of components, but I'm actually a bit skeptical that their transmissions are so similar that modern RWRs cannot tell them apart.

 

I too am skeptical of that.

 

IF sharing critical components were to be enough not be able for the RWR to tell two aircraft apart such as mig29 or su27, then by the same logic the RWR shouldn't be able to tell apart an F/A18 from F15E strike eagle since the APG73 and APG70 share commonality in hardware and software. However that's clearly not the case in game.

Edited February 12, 2020 by Kev2go

[FoxAlfa]

The fact that radar pulse signatures change with moving from a tracking mode to missile guidance mode is well established.

 

Yes it is a well established fact and yet we have instruction in MiG-29 manual that instructs the pilot that on the loss of track at shot distance, to energetically turn the plane towards the target to secure illumination in SCAN mode. Since apparently SCAN mode provides enough energy to guide R-27 at short range... so don't stick to well established fact that much...

Edited February 12, 2020 by FoxAlfa

[GGTharos]

That's an even worse backup than FLOOD.