AH-64s IHADSS (short analysys of that simulation problem)

[amalahama]

When VR device's prize goes down, I think this problem will finish. Right and left eye will come with different processing, so you can project IHADSS info in only an eye.

 

Regards!!

[Sundowner.pl]

Well you can make an HDU right now, for not much money. Just buy a cheap video camera, disassemble it, plug into tv-out in your graphic card, add lenses, and combiner glass to the eye peace, and something to mount it, and you will have HDU.. but black&white ;)

 

The VR prices will not go down. Somewhere in 1997-98 I was playing with the VFX-1, its price back then was mind boggling - a 1000 USD or more, resolution was crappy (263x230), and only things I could play on it was Tek War, Doom, and Heretic... no simulation worked ;). It was 1997. Now decade later, we have HD screens, and 'affordable' Virtual reality helmets, have max 800x640, and still cost around 1000 USD, and are 2D, the 3D that can take different inputs into screens cost twice as much. Don't wait for it.

[Sundowner.pl]

I'm a gadget freak ;) I tried those few years back... not a good investment, my head hurt after an hour of using it.

[amalahama]

I'm a gadget freak ;)

 

Lol I see :lol:. I think very early EF-2000 DOS 1.0 version was VR capable. At leasts, I remember an option in the arcaic setup menu.

 

Regards!!

[Flyby]

Great Stuff!!!!

 

I have nothing of import to add to this thread except to say I look forward to more interesting discussions with in this forum. You guys are top shelf! :D

Hey Brad, I too appreciate your input. As someone who's living/learning it, you add a perspective that's extremely valuable to us simmers. As for the rest of you guys, I feel like an extreme noob compared to what you're bringing to the party. Nice going, and keep up the good work! :) It's much appreciated too.

Flyby

[bradmick]

Apologies for the really crappy example, don't have a lot of time before I have to get to academics, but I figured i'd whip this up. The background is from FSX, and the HDU I quick threw together in LightWave. Basically, thats how I see the best way of representing it. The HDU will be situated at about where it would be over the right eye, also i'd imagine with a button push the HDU could be moved to the side. So, yeah. Crappy example, but the best way I could see it happening. Now, obviously at night, the left part of the screen would be normal, the combiner lens would have the NVS systems display on it.

 

Brad

[Sundowner.pl]

The problem with this approach is - you don't actually 'aim' where you look, it would always be few degrees to the right, so all flight symbols would become meaningless.

[Yellonet]

The problem with this approach is - you don't actually 'aim' where you look, it would always be few degrees to the right, so all flight symbols would become meaningless.

What would be a problem with that?

[bradmick]

not true, because that's how we fly it in the actual aircraft. It is offset when flying. The aircraft knows this as well, and when you boresight the IHADSS the computer on board says 'okay, his head is here'. The symbology isn't useless at all, I mean, if i look left, i still know that the aircraft is straight and level because the horizon line tells me so.

 

For weapons purposes, the computer also knows this, and it is taken care of during the boresight as well. wherever you aim your eye (read: the actual center of the symbology set there) thats where the gun is aimed too. Its also where the PNVS and TADS systems point as well.

 

Brad

[Sundowner.pl]

If your flight path marker is 20 degrees from real flight patch... then I would say... a lot!

 

The same with gun, the gun aims where you look, so you look at the target using the HDU to aim... squeeze the trigger, and bullets land 20 degrees to the left.

 

[EDIT]

Brad, I know, but there is a difference - how you look at the world through your eyes (plus the HDU) and how you look at the simulated world. In reality the HDU is mounted so when you look straight ahead the symbology is centered on your right eye. So on the computer screen they also have to be centered. I don't think you fly with the HDU more to the right from your center of vision... actually since its a collimated image, you probably won't see anything on it.

[bradmick]

well, from experience I know that the only time the HDU is on the centerline of the aircraft is when you boresight. When i look straight ahead, the symbology isn't centered in my vision. Now, sure, in the simulated world, it's probably a little disconcerting to the player to effectively have to look at two different parts of the screen to find out whats going on, but if you want an accurate portrayal of the IHADSS thats the best way of going about it. It's really (to me) no different than having to look inside the cockpit at the instruments. Whenever the player uses his thumbswitch on the joystick, the HDU would move with the camera, so that whenever they put the target in the center of the reticle, they could fire and have a 100% assurance of hitting the target. the gun would have to be tweaked in the game obviously. It's definately do-able.

[Yellonet]

If your flight path marker is 20 degrees from real flight patch... then I would say... a lot!

 

The same with gun, the gun aims where you look, so you look at the target using the HDU to aim... squeeze the trigger, and bullets land 20 degrees to the left.

 

[EDIT]

Brad, I know, but there is a difference - how you look at the world through your eyes (plus the HDU) and how you look at the simulated world. In reality the HDU is mounted so when you look straight ahead the symbology is centered on your right eye. So on the computer screen they also have to be centered. I don't think you fly with the HDU more to the right from your center of vision... actually since its a collimated image, you probably won't see anything on it.

Finally I understand what you mean (I think). Shouldn't pose any big problems in the sim though, either just ignore it and make you look slightly to the left to aim straight forward, or make the image from the helmet sight go outside the limits of the physical sight and simulate the combined image your real eyes would see.

[Sundowner.pl]

well, from experience I know that the only time the HDU is on the centerline of the aircraft is when you boresight. When i look straight ahead, the symbology isn't centered in my vision.

Hmm, that's weird.

 

Because what I would like for anyone interested in this subject to do, is to take some glasses, correction, or protective. Put clear tape on the right side, prepare a marker, stare at one point ahead of you, having your head in neutral position - straight to that point. Put a dot on the glasses with your marker where that point your looking at is, then draw a circle around it, put glasses on again and just notice, that this blurry circle is always in center of your vision, when you turn your head into things, its not to the left, its not to the right. Even though its perceived only by one of your eyes its always in the middle of your vision.

[joey45]

....The same with gun, the gun aims where you look, so you look at the target using the HDU to aim... squeeze the trigger, and bullets land 20 degrees to the left....

 

the computer realines the gun to camra [or vice a versa].

[bradmick]

It might be because i'm not looking at the symbology directly either. I'm looking out and past it, focusing on my visual markers. To me, it's very noticably not in the center of my vision, which is why the little example to me is as close an approximation as you can get.

 

 

Brad

[Nordic]

This site might be interesting:

http://www.usaarl.army.mil/hmd/cp_001.htm#cont1.1

[Malleus]

It might be because i'm not looking at the symbology directly either. I'm looking out and past it, focusing on my visual markers.

 

I may be wrong, but isn't the (HUD/HDU) symbology projected into the distance? Any anyway, the computer calculates it so that it point where it should ... ?

[bradmick]

Alrighty, so while I was flying today I tried to pay a bit more attention to the HDU and its location and how the symbology was displayed in my field of view. I'm not on my computer, so I can't post an updated pic, but suffice it to say the combinger lens should be a lot larger, should actually encompass a good portion of the shot. When looking out, I did notice that if I looked straight ahead, the LOS reticle was largely centered with the centerline of the aircraft, a little offset and to the right, but for the most part centered. So, here's what i'm thinking. Increase the size of the HDU in the shot, so that you can still see it, and have it so it allows for the symbology to be in the center of the players vision. This way, there is an accurate portrayal of the Apache HDU. I think it would actually look really awesome. And it shouldn't be to obtrusive. I honestly don't notice the HDU as being there unless I bring my eye to focus, so it should also be slightly blurred out. That would be a pretty acceptable and true represenation of it. And of course, if the player doesn't want it down, have a hot key command to move the HDU out of the way. But, I got what Sundowner was talking about when I really looked at what I was seeing and how it was coming together in my field of vision. I'll work on putting together a new example when I get home later today.

 

Brad

[Sundowner.pl]

Thanks Brad for paying attention to this, hope this will not distract you from what you really suppose to do there, and only enrich your understanding of how that peace of machinery works :smartass: Now we're waiting for you to start night flights :smilewink:

 

the computer realines the gun to camra [or vice a versa].

Well the gun has already some offset from the crew helmets, but, as far as I know, it's not angular offset, - that means, the gun turns the same degree that a pilots helmet is, so no computer compensation is required. If there'll be angular offset, the computer had to compensate, and since the PNVS has no means of measuring distance, that gun would have to be zeroed on a specified distance.

[bradmick]

I can give a little insight into this. When I go to do the boresight, its left eye closed looking down the BRU with my right eye and the LOS reticle lined up on the BRU. When I boresight, from my understanding, slaves the gun to my eye which is in refernce to the ADL of the aircraft. Now, making the player boresight might be a little much, it'd be easier just to have the game go 'okay, point the gun where the LOS reticle is pointing. Believe me, a good run up takes about 30 to 45 minutes, to include all the insanity that is the checklist...forcing a player to have to do all that stuff, ouch...just...ouch. heheh

 

Brad

[Weta43]

It doesn't have to do a re-alignment because there's no paralax - the sight is directly in front of the eye, so if you put the sight over the target, your head is pointing at the target.

The conversation has (it seems to me) got a bit confused by what you see with both eyes open & that we combine 2 images into a stereo one automaticaly - with both eyes open the sight appears to be a bit to the right of the total field of view, but closing the other eye would make it obvious that the sight is aligned with the eye it's over when it's looking straight ahead & so there's no 'looking sideways' to compensate for.

If you put your glasses on again, close one eye & put a dot directly in front of the open eye, you don't need an angular correction to get the dot on top of whatever you want to look at, just point your head (helmet) at the target.

Now openthe other eye & the sight (if you try to make a photo of your vision) appears to be off to the right, but it's actualy still right in front of where your eye is looking if you look straight ahead through that eye & a simulation of the sight should be in the centre of the screen.

I agree with Brad about the hotkey(bold mine):

He honestly doesn't notice the HDU as being there unless he brings his eye to focus, so it should also be slightly blurred out. That would be a pretty acceptable and true represenation of it. And of course, if the player doesn't want it down, have a hot key command to move the HDU out of the way.

but it seems to me that what should happen is that there should be 3 states, toggled away, toggled into the field of view but not in use (HDU part of image off to the right slightly & symbology blurred)

& HDU in use (HDU symbology centred and in focus.

You could have a half second delay built in between toggling the sight up & down to encourage people to get ready in time, then have the switch between down & in use instantaneous as all you have to do is change the eye you look through & refocus)

[bradmick]

well, the only person that would fly with it off is the CPG. The pilot ALWAYS flies with it on, the ability to move it off to the side is incase it were to fail, which would require the pilot having to transfer his view inside. The symbology, and all its many areas are the only real means for the pilot to know what the aircraft is doing in flight.

 

Brad

[Weta43]

I think you were right though -

if the player doesn't want it down, have a hot key command to move the HDU out of the way.

It's going to be a high fidelity sim, and if you can get it out of your field of view, you should be able to (even if only as part of the startup & in the event of failures)

[bradmick]

oh, rog. I meant more for instead of 3 positions, just the 2. Sorry about that.

 

Brad

[Flyby]

Brad!!!!

 

Man, I can't wait for you to get your hands on Black Shark so you can give us your review of the flight model. I'm not expecting you to do a side-by-side comaprison between the BS and the Apache. I'd just like your opinion of how the model feels. I'm only asking you because I don't kow if there's another helicopter pilot on these forums to ask. no offense of I missed anyone.

Flyby