Dropping LGBs in CCIP?

[Notso]

Hey guys,

 

I keep having trouble with the Litening not tracking targets... not sure if I'm doing something wrong, or if there's something wrong with the pod after the last updates.

 

Basically, I go in CCRP mode, I find the target on the tgp, go to point track, lock the target, fly level at it, waiting for the cue to drop down to the flightpath marker, hold the weapon release button until the bomb drops, then fire the laser (the code is correct).

At that point, I turn left to keep the target into the pod field of view, then back onto a course parallel to the one I was on before; unavoidably, everytime the target reach my 3 o'clock and goes past, the Litening head swivel back and loses track of it.

 

So, am I doing something wrong, or is there something wrong with the pod?

 

So a couple of things to look at in terms of technique:

 

-- Nothing wrong with a point track if its a really small well defined target with lots of contrast, but most people will drop in Area track so you can better define the crosshair placement. It's typically a better way to go for the majority of target sets out there.

 

-- Be as fast as you can up to a point - faster = more bomb energy. 540KTS or .9M is ideal. Any faster and you might overspeed the bombs. (not sure if DCS models this).

 

-- Fly the jet as precisely as you can down the ASL line putting the flight path marker dead in the middle of the line. The closer you are to dead perfect, the less the bomb has to correct inflight.

 

-- Hold the weapon release button about 5-10 sec BEFORE the release cue would go to 0 and continue to hold it until the cue flashes denoting the weapon has been released off the pylon.

 

-- Check away with about 3-4Gs to the LEFT (always opposite the side the TGP pod is on) about 45-60 deg and then roll out wings level and stay there. Your technique of then checking back to parallel is likely the reason for the misses. The #1 concept is you want as stable a platform in the last 10-12 sec before impact as possible. So resist the temptation to maneuver the jet. Any crosshair movement in that last critical 8-10 sec means the LGB is chasing the laser spot and its running it out of energy unnecessarily. Even small movements on your scope are huge to the weapon inflight.

 

-- To add to the above check away technique - depending on altitude, at worst you might have to make an ever so gentle turn away from the target if it appears that you will get some masking on the TGP by the jet pylons or wings. This is rare unless you are very low or you've over-turned the check away maneuver. But if you do see that, just a very gentle wing dip away from the target just to unmask is required. Something like a 3-5 degree angle of bank away is usually enough to unmask.

 

- The final thing you can do is just a level straight through. The lightening Pod will handle that just fine. In fact, that might be a good way to practice the above delivery techniques and then once you're getting consistent hits, then add in the check-away maneuver. The level straight through is fine for a low to no threat environment. The check away is the more prefered in other situations because it gives you some standoff from the target.

 

Practice practice practice!

[Notso]

@Gianky, assuming the Litening II pod is on your right hip, you should try flying straight and level or in a slight right turn after you drop your LGB. Turning left makes the angle worse for your TGP. If you are still having trouble, try flying at a higher altitude. 15,000 ft usually gives me plenty of time at quarter to half throttle for the bomb to hit its target before the TGP gets masked.

 

No sorry, but that is completely wrong. Nothing wrong with straight and level. But if you're going to turn - always turn Away from the side the pod is on. Think about it, at release the TGT is directly on the nose, If you turn right with the pod on the right, it will then be looking through the intake as the target passes to the left side of the jet.

[Deano87]

Depending on the bomb fall time and release altitude/range you can even turn left until the target is at your 3 o'clock and then begin a gentle right turn to keep it at 3 o'clock and stop it falling back into masking area.

[Frederf]

3 to 4 g is too much. It's normal to turn away 30 AOB or so. The avoids the podium effect. Ideally the pod is doing the least amount of work to track. The relative angle rate (I.e. the cue dot motion) should be minimum. The turn direction isn't super critical since the pod is mounted practically central. For normal lean away turns the vector to the target is nearly straight down constant.

[Gianky]

Hey guys!

 

Thanks for all the advice, I'll try them as soon as I can.

 

One think I didn't mention, but it may be important: I'm trying to hit a column of armor moving along the road and, until now, I followed the quickest approach, which means I'm moving in the opposite direction they are. Should I approach them from behind, instead?

[Notso]

3 to 4 g is too much. It's normal to turn away 30 AOB or so. The avoids the podium effect. Ideally the pod is doing the least amount of work to track. The relative angle rate (I.e. the cue dot motion) should be minimum. The turn direction isn't super critical since the pod is mounted practically central. For normal lean away turns the vector to the target is nearly straight down constant.

 

True. If standoff from the TGT is not a concern - i.e. low to no threats, a 30 AOB turn is a viable TTP as well and obviously works. OTOH, a 3-4g check turn immediately after pickle preserves a bit of standoff and more importantly gets you to a wings level, stabilized platform sooner in the bomb's TOF which means less workload for the pilot in the end game to concentrate on guiding the bomb. And a hard 45-60 deg check turn keeps you more out of MANPAD and AAA threats if they are a factor in the TGT area.

[Xavven]

No sorry, but that is completely wrong. Nothing wrong with straight and level. But if you're going to turn - always turn Away from the side the pod is on. Think about it, at release the TGT is directly on the nose, If you turn right with the pod on the right, it will then be looking through the intake as the target passes to the left side of the jet.

 

 

Sure, if you don't overfly the target then turn left. You're not wrong.

 

 

If you overfly the target after bomb release then you are gonna have to keep a right bank.

[tobyeez]

You need to put in laser code then release in ccip. It will still drop towards the laser. I do all the time in Hornet.

[Frederf]

True. If standoff from the TGT is not a concern - i.e. low to no threats, a 30 AOB turn is a viable TTP as well and obviously works. OTOH, a 3-4g check turn immediately after pickle preserves a bit of standoff and more importantly gets you to a wings level, stabilized platform sooner in the bomb's TOF which means less workload for the pilot in the end game to concentrate on guiding the bomb. And a hard 45-60 deg check turn keeps you more out of MANPAD and AAA threats if they are a factor in the TGT area.

Oh, sure. I thought you meant that g for the entire TOF. A firm turn like that you'd generate whatever heading change and be back straight line flight before autolase even began.

 

Hey guys!

 

Thanks for all the advice, I'll try them as soon as I can.

 

One think I didn't mention, but it may be important: I'm trying to hit a column of armor moving along the road and, until now, I followed the quickest approach, which means I'm moving in the opposite direction they are. Should I approach them from behind, instead?

You should always aim Paveway II at moving targets toward a point one predicted TOF in the future. Head on the bomb may never see the laser and trailing may create energy problems. Point track should be avoided entirely or delayed until just before impact. personally i'd prefer lateral or head on as dust or smoke from the vehicles couldn't obscure.

[Notso]

Oh, sure. I thought you meant that g for the entire TOF. A firm turn like that you'd generate whatever heading change and be back straight line flight before autolase even began.

 

Yes, exactly. 3-4 G initial hard turn to achieve a 45-60 deg heading change and then roll out wings level. That achieves the best compromise of standoff, masking issues and providing a stable platform to be able to guide the weapon in the terminal phase. It also is ideal for solving any podium issues because you stay further away from the TGT.

 

I am not a big fan of maintaining a constant AOB during the TOF. It works, but it creates a much higher workload for the pilot and makes the job of tracking the target much more difficult since the pod angles and changes much more rapidly and the X-Y axes are changing as well if you're making small corrections while maintaining a bank angle.

[Notso]

Oh, sure. I thought you meant that g for the entire TOF. A firm turn like that you'd generate whatever heading change and be back straight line flight before autolase even began.

 

 

You should always aim Paveway II at moving targets toward a point one predicted TOF in the future. Head on the bomb may never see the laser and trailing may create energy problems. Point track should be avoided entirely or delayed until just before impact. personally i'd prefer lateral or head on as dust or smoke from the vehicles couldn't obscure.

 

Correct. PWII on movers is as much art as science and is one of the toughest attacks with that weapon you can conceive of. AS you said, the key is to set the designation point well ahead of the target, one TOF (~30-40 sec) ahead of the mover. How to gauge how far that is the key. If you have a good measuring stick in the TGP (which DCS doesn't have), you can get pretty close. Otherwise you have to figure out how big your screen is side to side at the slant range you're looking at. There are formulas and trig to figure that out. But I would have to take my shoes off to count that high. ;)

 

Head on attacks are the best for weapon energy, but as you said - if you tube up the designation point, the GBU might not ever see the laser spot if the target is closer to the designation point that you expected at release. Tail on attacks are likely the worst plan for bomb energy. Beam attacks are viable but again, there is an energy issue as the bomb is going to be going pure on the target and depleting energy.

 

The final key to a successful mover attack is leading the target by the correct amount. It's all about target speed. A good ROT is to lead a 20mph mover by roughly 1 vehicle length, maybe a smidge less. 10mph = half a length. Anything over 20mph is likely never going to hit anyway. That's why point track can't work, because you need to have the crosshairs out in front of the vehicle.

 

Also, because of the uncertainty of the designation point and the fact that the target is moving - Continuous lase from release to impact is prefered over delay lasing. Yes, you're using more energy, but you have a much higher likelihood of the bomb never seeing the spot if you delay lase - 100% ensuring a miss.

Edited March 13, 2020 by Notso

[Notso]

So a couple of things to look at in terms of technique:

 

 

-- Be as fast as you can up to a point - faster = more bomb energy. 540KTS or .9M is ideal. Any faster and you might overspeed the bombs. (not sure if DCS models this).

 

 

Practice practice practice!

 

One caveat I forgot to add this bullet point is that once the bomb is off the jet..... slow down a bit. You want as much speed (up to carriage/release limits) to give the bomb the max energy to help overcome the shortcomings of the PWII bang bang guidance. But once the bomb is on the way, stand the throttles up and slow down to something like around best corner speed (400-450T). This slows down the rate of closure to the target and helps preserve standoff distance. This is especially critical if dealing with a podium effect problem. You don't want to get too slow however in the event there are threats and you need to maneuver to evade a missile someone might pop at you at a bad time.

[Frederf]

Dive (even shallow) delivery helps the bomb acquire the laser spot earlier. Continuous lase on a fast level release might have the first half of the TOF laser wasted because the bomb isn't pointed down enough to see the spot.

[Notso]

Dive (even shallow) delivery helps the bomb acquire the laser spot earlier. Continuous lase on a fast level release might have the first half of the TOF laser wasted because the bomb isn't pointed down enough to see the spot.

 

Concur

[Gianky]

Hey guys!

 

Just a quick post to let you know I finally made it! Thanks to everyone for their inputs, but a big thank you especially to Notso and Frederf, you guys are a gold mine of information! :thumbup:

[Fri13]

Having said that, in the current iteration of how the F-16 and Hornet are mechanized in DCS, this is a really difficult task and the DCS systems are not working correctly as they would be in the real aircraft. IRL, as soon as you pickle in CCIP with the TGP slaved to the Pipper - the TGP crosshair would then "stick" to the point on the ground where the pipper designated the target and would stay there during the jets post release maneuvering. The pilot would then hopefully only need to make small corrections of the crosshair during the TOF. I don't know exactly how the Hornet really works, but I assume this would also be the case. However, in DCS as someone said above - you would have to trick f*$k the HOTAS to switch back to CCRP or something after release to get TGP onto the target. So in DCS, I would say not to bother unless you just want to play around with it for shiggles.

 

That is how it works with Harrier. You see DMT snapping to CCIP designation mode (CCRP) when pressing pickle. Then use TDC on throttle to refine target if you have time.

 

With TPOD you need to press "SLAVE" after pickle to get it point where you designated with CCIP.