AGM-154A & AGM-154C Inaccuracy

[WytchCrypt]

Just beginning to play with these and am noticing many more misses than hits. True whether I use TOO defined by a waypoint or PP by entering Lon/Lat/Alt. I'm releasing at least half way through the range circles at a stable altitude of 10,000 - 12,000 ft. My hits are close from a side-to-side target aspect but the near-far distance is almost always off.

 

 

 

Am I doing something wrong or are these weapons really that inaccurate?

[Vanguard]

There's at least 5 threads on this currently.

 

For starters...

https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=238815&highlight=F10+precise+decimal

https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=266035

https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=263781&highlight=F%2Fa-18c+precise

Mostly related to JDAM, but the inaccuracies described there relate to JSOW as well.

 

Basically, are you using precise mode and entering extended HMS.ddd or Hours/Minutes/thousanths of seconds decimal as your coords?

 

Are you taking the coords from TGP and not taking slant angle into account (locking ground under vehicle, not the vehicle itself)?

 

Then there is the general inaccuracy of the weapon itself (about 3 meters according to wikipedia)...

 

Lastly, yeah, we're waiting on updates...

Edited March 14, 2020 by Vanguard

[WytchCrypt]

Thanks for the update Vanguard :smilewink:

 

 

At first I was flying TOO mode and setting my wypt directly on the target in the mission editor, including the proper target elevation. Flew the simple mission I set up to learn this several times and had wildly inaccurate results with both AGM-154A's and AGM154C's.

 

 

 

I vaguely remembered reading in a thread that the problem with using wypt's for JSAM/JSOW targeting was they don't include the final decimal part of the LAT and LON. Confident I'd found the reason for the accuracy problem, I switched over to PP mode. Entered the entire LAT/LON in HMS.ddd including the decimal and was still wildly inaccurate. Flew several times this way and still very hit or miss, usually miss :(

 

 

Sounds like with the already documented inaccuracy of these that they're a poor choice for taking out a relatively small target like a plane or helo sitting on the tarmac. Guess I'll move on to learning the GBU laser bombs and see if they're more accurate.

[Tholozor]

Also, remember to check the altitude of the target waypoint (if using TOO mode) in the jet after you start the mission, as it generally will try to default to about 100ft AGL.

[Vanguard]

Excellent point Tholozor. I think a lot of folks miss this step, especially those coming from the A-10 because in the A-10 the elevation will get auto-filled by DTS when creating a waypoint, and therefore not needed for ground targets.

[silverdevil]

in my training i have found that in TOO my best results are when i use lightening on station 4 (sans the AIM). i waypoint designate to get in rough location and use lightening to get good coordinates. i can do a couple designates and watch the coords change in the JSOW mission page. i get a good altitude over target to get accurate results. i am able to get mostly shacks at this point.

[WytchCrypt]

in my training i have found that in TOO my best results are when i use lightening on station 4 (sans the AIM). i waypoint designate to get in rough location and use lightening to get good coordinates. i can do a couple designates and watch the coords change in the JSOW mission page. i get a good altitude over target to get accurate results. i am able to get mostly shacks at this point.

 

This^

 

I wanted to report back that after spending a few hours yesterday flying my AGM-154A & 154C training missions that I had excellent results when using the litening pod to get my coordinates in TOO mode. I've been testing my training mission with 3 options...TOO mode with mission editor defined WYPT's, TOO mode with litening pod targeting & PP mode punching in the LAT/LON/ELEV before takeoff. Without question, TOO mode in combination with the litening pod is by far the most accurate, followed by PP mode with manual LAT/LON/ELEV entry and in last place and still wildly inaccurate is TOO mode based on WYPT's. In fact, the TOO/WYPT approach is so awful I can't see a reason to ever use it.

 

 

 

Thanks to SilverDevil for addressing the biggest problem I had with the litening...locating a small target in a big area. I'll definitely try the WYPT designate to get me close, then the litening to zero in :smilewink:

[silverdevil]

This^

 

I wanted to report back that after spending a few hours yesterday flying my AGM-154A & 154C training missions that I had excellent results when using the litening pod to get my coordinates in TOO mode. I've been testing my training mission with 3 options...TOO mode with mission editor defined WYPT's, TOO mode with litening pod targeting & PP mode punching in the LAT/LON/ELEV before takeoff. Without question, TOO mode in combination with the litening pod is by far the most accurate, followed by PP mode with manual LAT/LON/ELEV entry and in last place and still wildly inaccurate is TOO mode based on WYPT's. In fact, the TOO/WYPT approach is so awful I can't see a reason to ever use it.

 

 

 

Thanks to SilverDevil for addressing the biggest problem I had with the litening...locating a small target in a big area. I'll definitely try the WYPT designate to get me close, then the litening to zero in :smilewink:

 

no problem. it took me some video watching to even get how to designate via the waypoint. another thing when using JSOWs is i need a tank because it is a much more deliberate weapon that requires more time on station. good luck

[WytchCrypt]

no problem. it took me some video watching to even get how to designate via the waypoint. another thing when using JSOWs is i need a tank because it is a much more deliberate weapon that requires more time on station. good luck

 

 

Thanks! Been flying all morning and this has worked out great! I set FLIR to right DDI, with the left I set the JSOW's to TOO on the ground and once in the air go back to HSI WYPT to get my HUD direction set then jump back into JSOW MSN. Line up with the HUD direction and now it's much easier to locate the target on FLIR and lock those coordinates back to the JSOW MSN page. Luckily jumping between HSI and JSOW MSN on the same DDI hasn't meant they have to warm up all over again.

 

 

 

Since I've started using FLIR instead of WYPT to set TOO coordinates, the 154A's & 154C's have been outstanding. I'd say in the past 10 training missions I've dropped 80 of them with only 4 misses (and those were likely because I was super late in the launch range envelope or under 10,000 ft) :smilewink:

[silverdevil]

Thanks! Been flying all morning and this has worked out great! I set FLIR to right DDI, with the left I set the JSOW's to TOO on the ground and once in the air go back to HSI WYPT to get my HUD direction set then jump back into JSOW MSN. Line up with the HUD direction and now it's much easier to locate the target on FLIR and lock those coordinates back to the JSOW MSN page. Luckily jumping between HSI and JSOW MSN on the same DDI hasn't meant they have to warm up all over again.

 

 

 

Since I've started using FLIR instead of WYPT to set TOO coordinates, the 154A's & 154C's have been outstanding. I'd say in the past 10 training missions I've dropped 80 of them with only 4 misses (and those were likely because I was super late in the launch range envelope or under 10,000 ft) :smilewink:

 

way to go! all you needed, as we all do, was a little push. also i suggest using multi-color display for the least used display. i will usually put JSOW there. but this is totally up to the pilot. just dont forget its there ;-)

[WytchCrypt]

way to go! all you needed, as we all do, was a little push. also i suggest using multi-color display for the least used display. i will usually put JSOW there. but this is totally up to the pilot. just dont forget its there ;-)

 

 

Thanks for your help, it's so much more fun when my AGM-154's actually hit their targets!

 

 

 

I woke up this morning with the same idea! Putting something on the color display so I don't have to keep swapping the Left DDI back and forth from HSI to Stores to HSI to Stores etc is a great idea. Great minds think alike :thumbup:

 

 

I'm going to try the HSI first because once the WYPT's are up I'll just be hitting the next button to point me to the next target area :smilewink: