Lets "World" means World map

[Wu70]

What about making a real World map in DCS: World? :)

 

We could start multiplayer servers in any part of the world, start from any airport we want, fight in any country we want.

 

Ah, dreamy.. :D

 

Of course its an ultra long-term plan/idea but its not something absolutely impossible, lets just look at microsoft flight simulator, they are trying to do it and it looks awesome. Maybe it is worth to investigate and work on tools how to generate maps instead of making manually another small map?

 

Edited March 14, 2020 by Wu70

[Mars Exulte]

Our maps are neither small nor ugly, that's a dumb thing to say.

[Vanguard]

Not really, relative to some other products on the market, one could argue they are small and ugly. There are currently good technical reasons they are the way they are. The question is, what's the point of your post? The guy has a dream and posted it, and I'd find it hard to believe no one here would want it, regardless of the likelihood we'll ever see it. Mods need to really start filtering this garbage out, that's why the community is where it's at currently.

[Mars Exulte]

The point is fairly obvious, I disagreed with his assertion which is arguably false. A world map is obviously a good thing in principal. If you want an echo chamber, may I suggest a read only blog, cause otherwise people are apt to present an opinion that may be... *gasp* different from yours. Shocking, I know.

[Bobik2002]

Dcs map have so many Easter eggs so I don't agree with "small and ugly" and NO. What you prefer bigger map with less detail or smaller map with more detail.

[Vanguard]

His opinion of small and ugly doesn't change the ask, which is what the replies here should be based on. Your reply adds no value is what I'm saying, but if it makes you feel better, please... continue.

[Wu70]

What you prefer bigger map with less detail or smaller map with more detail.

 

 

Totally you didnt understand my message. My post is about way how devs are making maps, you can place each tree manually or use a little tools, AI, satellite maps and other things beyond my knowledge.

 

Check the attached videos, this world is full of details, much more than our maps, just look at the New York in the trailer.. :)

 

His opinion of small and ugly doesn't change the ask, which is what the replies here should be based on. Your reply adds no value is what I'm saying, but if it makes you feel better, please... continue.

 

Exactly, I will edit first post because this triggered some people

[Mars Exulte]

His opinion of small and ugly doesn't change the ask, which is what the replies here should be based on. Your reply adds no value is what I'm saying, but if it makes you feel better, please... continue.

 

My post was at least related to the topic of maps, rather than griping about somebody's comment. This whole line of conversation is pointless @@

 

@OP

Those systems you're referring to, are called ''procedural generation'' and in most of these other sims of which you speak, the way that works is they pull vast quantities of low resolution satellite imagery from a database and use it to ''autopopulate'' with generic textures and objects. The larger the database, the less obvious the generic nature of everything. Certain areas are singled out for greater attention and hand detailed.

 

DCS maps are indeed smaller than ''the whole world'', but are much higher resolution terrain, and terrain textures in general, because they are NOT generic autopopulated terrain to the same extent, and are ALL hand detailed. With the brand new fancy shmancy flight sim coming, it MAY be so nice, but you're watching ads, they do not represent the whole truth. Fact, full stop. They also have a nearly unlimited budget and access to vast repositories of data... neither of which DCS has or ever will have. So, even if it is the new sliced bread, it's irrelevant because of factors out of ED's control.

 

That's not to say your suggestion is inappropriate, a wishlist is a wishlist and it's fine to have. Nobody's triggered except for the nub up above who can't stand dissenting opinions, but your statement, while your opinion, is arguably false. But whatever, you guys seems touchy about criticism. Enjoy your circle.

[Vanguard]

What you prefer bigger map with less detail or smaller map with more detail.

 

I'll take bigger maps with more detail please. Why would I want bigger maps with less detail? Is this based on your personal coding abilities, pessimism, or what? :huh:

 

As Wu70 has showcased, and most of us who are either devs and/or dabble with other products/latest methods, it's not that far reaching of an ask.

 

Anyway, this is a wishlist, no need to filter based on your own perceived limits of practicality or ability, unless you believe you're an expert in the field and it applies.

[Minsky]

Given that OP is relatively new here, his (or her) naivety is understandable.

 

But to more seasoned players, like Zhukov, who better understand the current state of DCS and the pace of its development, these ideas are laughable.

 

It's like wishing for world peace or immortality. Maybe DCS will get there eventually, but not in our lifetime.

[Vanguard]

Ok, back on topic...

 

@OP

Those systems you're referring to, are called ''procedural generation'' and in most of these other sims of which you speak, the way that works is they pull vast quantities of low resolution satellite imagery from a database and use it to ''autopopulate'' with generic textures and objects. The larger the database, the less obvious the generic nature of everything. Certain areas are singled out for greater attention and hand detailed.

 

DCS maps are indeed smaller than ''the whole world'', but are much higher resolution terrain, and terrain textures in general, because they are NOT generic autopopulated terrain to the same extent, and are ALL hand detailed. With the brand new fancy shmancy flight sim coming, it MAY be so nice, but you're watching ads, they do not represent the whole truth. Fact, full stop. They also have a nearly unlimited budget and access to vast repositories of data... neither of which DCS has or ever will have. So, even if it is the new sliced bread, it's irrelevant because of factors out of ED's control.

 

That's actually the complete opposite of procedural generation. Procedural generation uses... procedures... math and algos to generate the terrain. Pulling DEM data and satellite imagery is the opposite of procedural. The current DCS maps are created the same way, with DEM data, satellite imagery, and then In the case of the Caucasus map, used a limited palette of of card-board cutout buildings to fill in where towns should. The only difference I can imagine is those structures are potentially hand placed vs dynamically generated, but is no more accurate than the "generic textures and objects" of other sims. In some of the newer maps, tere aren't as many generic, albeit they aren't as generic as you might think in FS and the videos Wu70 posted. You do realize most of the major populous centers have been 3D mapped by community on google maps at this point, ya?

Edited March 14, 2020 by Vanguard

[Vanguard]

Given that OP is relatively new here, his (or her) naivety is understandable.

 

But to more seasoned players, like Zhukov, who better understand the current state of DCS and the pace of its development, these ideas are laughable.

 

It's like wishing for world peace or immortality. Maybe DCS will get there eventually, but not in our lifetime.

 

Oh good, more poison. Call the OP naive, and white knight zhukov032186 just as he himself counters your own statement:

 

That's not to say your suggestion is inappropriate, a wishlist is a wishlist and it's fine to have.

 

Now even the wishlist and peeps wishes are under attack :helpsmilie::doh:

[Wu70]

@zhukov032186 I cant agree, in my opinion lets cay our Caucasus map is ugly and it lacks details but everyone can judge differently and it doesn't matter.

I know that most of this vids are trailers and ads but there are also some pre-alpha gameplays available, anyway even if it will looks a little worse at release stage, even then it will be awesome comparing to DCS classic maps.

 

In these times we have satellite maps, 3D cities scans etc and they are very good quality, its not like ED have to start own rocket with satellite to take some photos. :)

Microsoft shows its possible and it doesnt look like rocket science.

 

Budget is probably very important thing as you said but that is something to judge by developers.

 

Given that OP is relatively new here, his (or her) naivety is understandable.

 

But to more seasoned players, like Zhukov, who better understand the current state of DCS and the pace of its development, these ideas are laughable.

 

It's like wishing for world peace or immortality. Maybe DCS will get there eventually, but not in our lifetime.

 

Really not undestand what is naive here. My post is not about technology from another galaxy, it works in another sim, they are not aliens.

 

Maybe it is harder to do but we are in 2020, games are going to be more complex and complex

[Minsky]

Really not undestand what is naive here. My post is not about technology from another galaxy, it works in another sim, they are not aliens.

 

Maybe it is harder to do but we are in 2020, games are going to be more complex and complex

 

FSX (on which MSFS2020 is based) and its predecessors were designed from the ground up to include the whole world. DSC by its nature can only support relatively small maps, and their size cannot be increased much further without considerable engine rework.

 

So I highly doubt that ED will or should bother with that "the whole world" utopia, considering that literally nothing in the game is suited for this.

 

And by the way, you think you can have the whole world covered in satellite imagery without Microsoft's resources? Remove Bing from MSFS2020, and you'll see the same ugly FSX-like terrain that is much, much worse of what we're having in DCS right now.

[Minsky]

Now even the wishlist and peeps wishes are under attack :helpsmilie::doh:

 

You can wish all day long, who am I to forbid you this?

I merely stated that this particular wish is quite pointless.

[Wu70]

FSX (on which MSFS2020 is based) and its predecessors were designed from the ground up to include the whole world. DSC by its nature can only support relatively small maps, and their size cannot be increased much further without considerable engine rework.

 

So I highly doubt that ED will or should bother with that "the whole world" utopia, considering that literally nothing in the game is suited for this.

 

And by the way, you think you can have the whole world covered in satellite imagery without Microsoft's resources? Remove Bing from MSFS2020, and you'll see the same ugly FSX-like terrain that is much, much worse of what we're having in DCS right now.

 

Do you assume that DCS will be dead soon? If not then you know that some "engine reworks" or even new engines are planned anyway (or at least considered) in very long-term future.

 

Of course this is not something for the next month, thats why I have said "ultra long-term" which means years ahead and that can include heavy engine changes.

 

And by the way:

"We could start multiplayer servers in any part of the world"

by this I mean server admin can choose which part of the world will be loaded at the server, even with the current size but you can choose whatever region you want.

 

There are many providers of satellite data or other resources and developers could easily use them If really want, thats why all of this is not impossible - because you dont have to reinvent a wheel (of course not for free)

 

 

You can wish all day long, who am I to forbid you this?

I merely stated that this particular wish is quite pointless.

 

Really not sure why discussion about long-term changes is pointless in your opinion.

[Fri13]

This is already covered in the podcast interviewing Wags. That ultimate goal is the whole world.

 

But the engine ain't problem, it is more of the space.

 

Want a satellite textured maps with 100 meters / pixel resolution? Go ahead, it is possible.

 

Want the FS2020 data that is collected in the last 20 years by Nokia etc? 2+ petabytes... You are welcome....

 

EtZXMj_gUjU

[Wu70]

Thanks @Fri13! I have found that podcast and it looks like this is really a plan, at least it was in 2018 :D Awesome

 

This is already covered in the podcast interviewing Wags. That ultimate goal is the whole world.

 

But the engine ain't problem, it is more of the space.

 

Well, thats already resolved by MS team, you dont have to download all data, they are available online all the time.

Or you can download only interesting part etc., for sure they will figure this out

 

 

@zhukov032186 @Minsky you guys should inform Wag that they have pointless ideas :)

[Minsky]

This is already covered in the podcast interviewing Wags. That ultimate goal is the whole world.

 

@zhukov032186 @Minsky you guys should inform Wag that they have pointless ideas :)

 

My ultimate goal is to live forever. The probability of me achieving this goal? Not quite high.

 

I've seen enough of ED's promises to take anything they say with a pound of salt.

 

It doesn't exist until it hits the Early Access.

[Vanguard]

This is already covered in the podcast interviewing Wags. That ultimate goal is the whole world.

 

But the engine ain't problem, it is more of the space.

 

Want a satellite textured maps with 100 meters / pixel resolution? Go ahead, it is possible.

 

Want the FS2020 data that is collected in the last 20 years by Nokia etc? 2+ petabytes... You are welcome....

 

Yeah, for high detail, it's a challenge. The "space" problem can be solved by streaming the bits that are relevant to the area you are currently flying and caching techniques, but that would put minimum bandwidth requirements. Those with poor internet connections would need to limit their experience to their cached areas of interest...

 

Edit: Think google earth style technique and google maps cache offline area type of thing.

Edited March 14, 2020 by Vanguard

[RaTzo]

Our maps are neither small nor ugly, that's a dumb thing to say.

 

Have you seen the world?

[Mars Exulte]

Ok, back on topic...

 

 

 

That's actually the complete opposite of procedural generation. Procedural generation uses... procedures... math and algos to generate the terrain. Pulling DEM data and satellite imagery is the opposite of procedural. The current DCS maps are created the same way, with DEM data, satellite imagery, and then In the case of the Caucasus map, used a limited palette of of card-board cutout buildings to fill in where towns should. The only difference I can imagine is those structures are potentially hand placed vs dynamically generated, but is no more accurate than the "generic textures and objects" of other sims. In some of the newer maps, tere aren't as many generic, albeit they aren't as generic as you might think in FS and the videos Wu70 posted. You do realize most of the major populous centers have been 3D mapped by community on google maps at this point, ya?

 

..... no that is not the opposite of procedural generation. You can have a completely from scratch algorithm, like you describe, yes, OR you can have an algorithm that uses an approximate template (satellite data in this case) and fills in the details with... you guessed it, procedurally generated objects!

 

You cannot simply pull satellite data and use it raw unless you just want to fly over endless flat tracts of land (that also look like shit up close), so you need an algorithm to flesh it out, interpret terrain elevation, and populate the environment. THAT'S HOW IT WORKS. Including FS2020. The complexity of the algorithm and how much hand manipulation you engage in are big factors, but it's STILL heavily reliant on generation. It's not debatable.

 

And for that matter you cannot use straight sat textures ANYWAY because even commercial grade ones are not good enough to ''texture the world with''. It's used as a reference point for an algorithm to ''auto populate'' the environment, again, because satellite textures will look like crap if you just use them raw.

[Mars Exulte]

Have you seen the world?

 

Yeah, I have, and I don't expect my video games to look exactly like it for another 20 years or so.

 

 

 

-edit

Whatever, these guys are just gibbering tech terms they saw on reddit and basing their world view on unrelated notions and a video game trailer. I've better things to do with my time, like watching paint dry @@

Edited March 14, 2020 by zhukov032186

[VpR81]

Well, thats already resolved by MS team, you dont have to download all data, they are available online all the time.

Or you can download only interesting part etc., for sure they will figure this out

 

This is only a part of the truth. Fact is, that the details of the MSFS 2020 world map is related to your internet connection. The slower your connection is, the less details you will have. Not everyone has a 1000 Mbit/s connection to enjoy FS 2020 in full details, while i doubt a 1000 Mbit/s connection will be enough for that. Not to talk about the CPU/GPU you will need to run this with more than 15 fps. Even the raindrops on the windscreen are A.I. controlled as well as multiple shadow layers on 32 layer cloud systems. The PC (and internet connection) that runs FS 2020 with 60+ fps on full details is not developed yet.

[Minsky]

You guys know that MS is using AI and a lot of manual labour to tweak Bing's imagery before streaming it into MSFS2020, right?

 

Why do you think it takes Orbx months of hard work and tons of money to release a relatively small TrueEarth region?

 

Who would pay to model or license thousands of world's landmarks and airports? What about OSM and mesh data? It's not always available for free. What about navdata? It's not free either.

 

Haven't you seen a homebrew ortho in XP with a hit-and-miss quality? Do you really want this "straight from google maps" nonsense in your DCS?

 

How about historical maps? Like, for WWII or Vietnam? Can't find them on google maps.

 

Still think this discussion is not pointless?