Optimum maneuvering speeds for missile evasion?

[tmdgm]

What are the optimum maneuvering speeds for missile evasion. I think the F-15 is around 400, but not sure the upper and lower range. Really frustrating when you are going too fast and can't pull hard enough to avoid a missile. Same quest with Mig-29 and Su-27

[RvEYoda]

Hi tmdgm

 

Don't try to avoid a missile by out turning it. This is a fairly unrealistic way of dodging missiles, and you should instead try to focus on bleeding the missiles energy until it can no longer keep up with you. There are a number of ways of doing this.

 

If you end up in a situation where it is definitely too close for bleeding the missile energy, then something went wrong before, but, you are not dead yet. Now focus on breaking the lock of the missile - Lot of guides out there, but in general you can just rely on lockon's famous "dodge by accident" (one of the many bad/good things of a missile seeker model governed by a random number generator) and break hard like an idiot and dump a truckload of CMs. Remember to always slam the throttle to zero before dumping CMs if you believe you are facing an IR missile.

 

Try to start a little bit above 450 kts so even if you have to cut throttle and break hard, you still have some energy left after the maneuver.

 

Lets say this doesn't work either. Then you always have lockon's famous barrell roll exploit, but an even easier way would be just to beam the missile, roll inverted and use god's G when it gets close - pull full down!. Optimum speed around 400-500 KCAS (or lower depending on how tired your pilot is).

 

If you still wish to do the out turning, then try something like :

 

below 10.000 ft:

=======

15 : 400 KCAS<

29/27 : 800 kph<

 

above that you pretty much don't have the air density available to out turn by the way lockon is currently modeled.

[Boberro]

I always run away form missle and get higher. Always fly with ~1100 km\h and with this speed avoiding missles.

[Frostie]

I always run away form missle and get higher. Always fly with ~1100 km\h and with this speed avoiding missles.

By going higher your giving an already high missile an easier ride, the more altitude a missile has the less air density it has to face so it will travel further and faster.

[S77th-konkussion]

If the situation allows- try to brng the missile down lower and then climb. Obviously this is better if the missile has already traveled some distance and is already in post-motor burnout.

[Boberro]

By going higher your giving an already high missile an easier ride, the more altitude a missile has the less air density it has to face so it will travel further and faster.

 

But remember that if I am 4000 m higher than missle, that missle must go higher = lost it's speed by gravity. I always do that and on missle view I saw it losts its speed so fast that I am safety.

[Pilotasso]

Best speed to turn evasive is arround mach 0.9 ish. Any higher you wont turn, and slower youll bleed all speed to a crawl due to high angle of attack. There are many methods to evade, but the most essential thing is to stay away from the no escape zone, I.e. if the missile is still burning by the time it passes the clossest to you = bad. Either you get realy lucky or your hit. Outmanuevering missiles in these circunstances is pure hot-dogging. :D

 

If you feel that the enemy is about to fire well inside the no escape zone, dump chaff and flares in regular short intervals before he launches (this is nº1 rule for me in merges), hit the deck and if possible return a shot, or get the hell out of a dodge if he passes outside your sights. PReventive countemeasure dumping makes most missiles blind at launch.

 

Dont repeat this more than once or twice, youll run out of countermeasures sooner rather than later. If you survived 2 encounters like this, go to home plate pronto.

[SoaringEagle74]

I don't know about 'optimum maneuvering speeds for missile evasion' but too slow you stall during a high aoa turn and if your going too fast the rate of turn is usually not good enough.

 

A lot of variables to consider but the primary are missile type(ir, sarh, arh), engagement aspect ratio and relative altitude between attacker and victim.

 

If the missile was radar guided you will get a warning on the rwr. If it is ir you won't get any warning on rwr and unless you or someone else sees the launch your toast.

 

Generally speaking never let the enemy sneak behind you. This is the worst that can happen in any a2a engagement and you will most definitely lose!

 

Try to shoot down the enemy asap, preferably during bvr before the circling stunts begin. Even if you don't get a kill immediately the enemy will be on the defensive rather than the offensive...but don't maddog as some suggest.

 

When all else fails pull the g's and take the appropriate countermeasures. A lot depends on the engagement itself. For example, it's much different on a 1 to 1 encounter from a complex multiple threat enviroment.

 

Above all watch your rwr and get team or awacs updates if possible.

[tmdgm]

Wow, thanks for all the info.

 

Hi tmdgm

 

If you end up in a situation where it is definitely too close for bleeding the missile energy, then something went wrong before, but, you are not dead yet.

 

Not sure I understand this comment. If this is a 1v1, I would think this would be true, but all my missions end up merged at some point or another because you can't get all of them in bvr.

 

Also, not sure I'm really looking to out turn the missile. I was more thinking, when I'm beam of the missile and low, right before it hits I pull back and barrel roll into it, but sometimes depending on speed (and altitude which I didn't know was modelled) the plane is sluggish and doesn't respond well and boom. This is even when I'm ~450-500 kts. Maybe as you said, the air density is killing me if I'm too high. Have to experiment again.

 

Best speed to turn evasive is arround mach 0.9 ish. Any higher you wont turn, and slower youll bleed all speed to a crawl due to high angle of attack. There are many methods to evade, but the most essential thing is to stay away from the no escape zone, I.e. if the missile is still burning by the time it passes the clossest to you = bad. Either you get realy lucky or your hit. Outmanuevering missiles in these circunstances is pure hot-dogging. :D

 

If you feel that the enemy is about to fire well inside the no escape zone, dump chaff and flares in regular short intervals before he launches (this is nº1 rule for me in merges), hit the deck and if possible return a shot, or get the hell out of a dodge if he passes outside your sights. PReventive countemeasure dumping makes most missiles blind at launch.

 

 

0.9 mach, I'll try to remember that as well as the below 10.000 ft:

=======

15 : 400 KCAS<

29/27 : 800 kph<

 

Didn't know above 10 was bad for maneuvering.

 

One thing, sounds like you don't get in this "no escape zone". So you never merge? Don't your wingmen get blasted and by the time you are bvr, it's 1v4 or something like that?

 

Good advice on the countermeasures when that close. Thanks for the info.

[SoaringEagle74]

I hope you don't expect to become a a2a ace just by reading the manual and practicing the tuturials. At most you will have good foundations but thats about it. The rest is practice!

 

Once you feel comfortable consider joining an online squad where they get into the meat and potatoes of flying into complex threat enviroments. I flew a couple of missions with ai team members offline and usually most of them got killed in bvr stage just as you mentioned. A lot depends on how a mission is setup though.

 

Generally speaking, maneuverability suffers quite a bit at high altitudes as does acceleration but you will however get a higher mach speed eventually. You will also get a higher maximum launch range on your missiles.

[GGTharos]

This is a LOMAC issue - at 450-500kts you should be ebale to produce 9g's easily, but for some reason LOMAC limits you from doing so (based on weight I suppose - perhaps some aircraft have such a limit - the F-15 does not)

 

450kts is in this case a little better than 500, but you have less room for error in terms of bleeding speed. Other than that, your technique is essentially what is practiced RL, at least from what you're describing. It is not dependent on altitude either IIRC, though this again might be a LOMACism - there's just no advantage to flying high save for fuel consumption.

 

Also, not sure I'm really looking to out turn the missile. I was more thinking, when I'm beam of the missile and low, right before it hits I pull back and barrel roll into it, but sometimes depending on speed (and altitude which I didn't know was modelled) the plane is sluggish and doesn't respond well and boom. This is even when I'm ~450-500 kts. Maybe as you said, the air density is killing me if I'm too high. Have to experiment again.

 

 

All the no escape zone is, is basically the range at a given aspect and speed at which if you put the missile on your tail using an Xg sustained turn and then accerate Ykts above the speed you entered that range at, you will outrun the missile.

 

In other words, it is a range at which the missile has plenty of energy to do very bad things to you no matter what you do. Pretty much N/A in LOMAC for a number of reasons, such as missiles not tracking, being too slow (esp. US missiles) etc etc. Yes, the Rtr/NEZ exists in LO, and it does increase Pk to fire within it, but it is not as deadly as it ought.

 

One thing, sounds like you don't get in this "no escape zone". So you never merge? Don't your wingmen get blasted and by the time you are bvr, it's 1v4 or something like that?

 

Yup. Use it. It's even realistic.

 

Good advice on the countermeasures when that close. Thanks for the info.

[dodger42]

S77th used to fly a great BVR mission in SU33 vs F-14 with Phoenix missiles. The best way to beat that phoenix was to beam, then turn towards the missile when the tews started counting down to impact. The turn towards the missile was always at the best turn speed which was relatively slow.

[GGTharos]

The '54 is severely g-limited in LO.

[Pilotasso]

One thing, sounds like you don't get in this "no escape zone". So you never merge? Don't your wingmen get blasted and by the time you are bvr, it's 1v4 or something like that?

 

Good advice on the countermeasures when that close. Thanks for the info.

 

I do merge now and then. Most of my kills are obtained 4-8 miles away from my plane, head on aspect. NEZ from behind is about 2 miles for american missiles and about twice that for russian missiles. Guns knife fight is very rare, but do happen from time to time.

 

I fly alone most of my time but I do have support often. Albeit not in formation with anyone Ill use and help friendlies nearby. Flying close formations tends to make your flight act as single target. Its a good idea to be seperated by at least 5 miles, not side by side but displaced in altitude and horizontaly. Makes it easier for the enemy let one of us slip by into a favourable firing position unchecked.

 

RL tactics have formations spreaded to 2 miles appart, 1 usualy flying ahead and the other slighly behind. This difference to the SIM is because in LOMAC you can spot aircraft easier than IRL and flying close usualy tends to add yet another distraction during engagements to untrained virtual pilots like us.

[centermass]

words... because in LOMAC you can spot aircraft easier than IRL ... more words

 

How do you know this to be true?

[Kula66]

in LOMAC you can spot aircraft easier than IRL

 

Hmmm ... not sure about this. You read accounts of A2A combat and the number that start along the lines of "I caught a reflection of sunlight and quickly spotted ..." Also, we have no peripheral vision to help spot moving targets, plus the visibility in the F-15 is better than in LO, we have significantly worse SA than in LO with poor radio warnings from other sources, plus a/c disappear at about 2-4miles due to LOD change, plus we don't create smoke trails, wing vortex trails etc, plus we don't have the added incentive that we will die if we screw up!

 

So, no I think RL is probably easier.

[Pilotasso]

How do you know this to be true?

 

My bros a fighter pilot and I have had numerous occasions to try spot aircraft I knew were nearby from the air and from land. I have passed military medical examination with ease, My eyesight is very much similar to my brothers. We have talked about our experiences and its not easy to spot aircraft from distances greater than 3-4 miles. What gives them away, believe it or not are the supposedly smokeless engine exaust. If your looking up to a target you often see the trail before the actual aircraft itself. Very tiny dots apear short after and you can definatly tell they are fighters. Their apparent speed is much greater than an airliner much further away, nor even cessnas, the later almost look standing still at 1 mile.

 

In LOMAC I can spot aircraft at 20 miles due to LOD and shader system and to the fact the screen resolution causes the aircraft to look like a black dot in a single pixel regardless of the distance all the way untill the SIM establishes not to show any LOD.

 

At 20 miles you can hardly see a brightly painted 747 much less a fighter...

 

Hmmm ... not sure about this. You read accounts of A2A combat and the number that start along the lines of "I caught a reflection of sunlight and quickly spotted ..." Also, we have no peripheral vision to help spot moving targets, plus the visibility in the F-15 is better than in LO, we have significantly worse SA than in LO with poor radio warnings from other sources, plus a/c disappear at about 2-4miles due to LOD change, plus we don't create smoke trails, wing vortex trails etc, plus we don't have the added incentive that we will die if we screw up!

 

So, no I think RL is probably easier.

 

Nope! trust me... Its harder to spot them IRL. The last time I went to an event this summer, Portugal Airshow 2007 I told everyone to cover their years, in bemusement they asked why. I pointed the direction where 4 F-16's were turning to us HOT and nobody saw them. They had to come much closer, well under 1 mile untill they saw it. Sure enough they blasted by in full AB catching almost everybody else in surprise. IT WAS FRIGGIN LOUD.

 

My bro didnt see them before I did, so any other average pilot wouldnt also.

Besides your 4 mile visual contact is limited to your settings. You have glasses too? That helps to difuse peception of individual pixels.

[centermass]

Were you getting this range information from sensors or from your estimation, what was the aspect?

 

I don't remember seeing aircraft from 20 miles in LOMAC, but most of my dogfights start around 10 to 15 miles out. I do think it is easier to spot them in the game, when they are above the horizon, but not that much easier.

 

A lot of spotting an aircraft depends how you are looking at it. If your looking strait at the nose then you will not see it until it is closer, if your looking at the spine ( strait down from the top) then you will be able to see it from farther out.

[Pilotasso]

When I was in the air I recieved info from the radio, but spoting from the ground as a simple viewer is totaly estimated. If I made any estimate error its most likely to be by deffect rather than excess. Of course you are entitled to your own beliefs. :) Take a glider ride with someone experienced and then try to locate other gliders or planes. More often than not they are WVR but you failed to spot them anyway.

 

Another factor that takes into account is luminosity glare that spreads across moist air. Even though the sky looks clear it hides tons of aircraft and your eyes hurt trying to see better. then came polarized glasses. yahoo...no I dont own a pair yet. :D

[cool_t]

:)

 

Put your self in a point where your bandit cant shoot you then you dont need to think about missile evasion, then your set up for the next kill.

 

Missile evasion is different for where you are, alt, speed, fuel load, mission, in-egression, and where you want to be after the bandits missile misses. (Thats why there called "MISSiles").

 

:thumbup: