RWR Warning for ARH missile launches in STT

[hein22]

Rgr I get that, im just wondering if the symbology should be any different in that case.

 

Probably, but I am no expert so maybe someone willing to help might jump in here.

[Santi871]

I'm not sure what we're talking about anymore but there seems to be some confusion.

 

PDI is not CW. Only F and later Sparrows support PD guidance.

STT is also neither PDI nor CW. PDI is a specific waveform to guide Sparrows that support PD guidance. Nothing to do with the AMRAAM whatsoever.

[Stubbies2003]

You misunderstood the sentence there. On p136 it is explaining how pulse doppler radars work in general as opposed to old CW ones. It is not saying that it lacks that mode for lock on.

 

 

It probably does lack that. I worked on the USAF F-16s for 20 years and the vast majority of F-16s do NOT have CW hardware installed thus couldn't carry and use a Sparrow even if they wanted to. They are pulse doppler all the way thus the OP is correct that STT launches of AMRAAMs should NOT trigger launch warnings as there is no change in the signal for the RWR systems to detect and warn about.

[hein22]

I'm not sure what we're talking about anymore but there seems to be some confusion.

 

PDI is not CW. Only F and later Sparrows support PD guidance.

STT is also neither PDI nor CW. PDI is a specific waveform to guide Sparrows that support PD guidance. Nothing to do with the AMRAAM whatsoever.

 

Thanks Santi. Perhaps you could check OP and see let us know your thoughts. Should we get RWR launch warning when an ARH is fired in STT?

[hein22]

It probably does lack that. I worked on the USAF F-16s for 20 years and the vast majority of F-16s do NOT have CW hardware installed thus couldn't carry and use a Sparrow even if they wanted to. They are pulse doppler all the way thus the OP is correct that STT launches of AMRAAMs should NOT trigger launch warnings as there is no change in the signal for the RWR systems to detect and warn about.

 

I think you do get warning, side lobes command datalink is what gives it away.

[Stubbies2003]

Every modern radar has CW in its PD assembley. How would they fire SARH then?

 

 

They don't. Reference my last post. Until the AMRAAM came along most F-16s were AIM-9 only.

[Stubbies2003]

I think you do get warning, side lobes command datalink is what gives it away.

 

 

If it was in the side lobes then STT wouldn't make any difference to SAM or TWS. The data would still be there and you would get a warning regardless.

[hein22]

If it was in the side lobes then STT wouldn't make any difference to SAM or TWS. The data would still be there and you would get a warning regardless.

 

Well, then DCS is wrong since 2003. Thanks for making that clear.

[Santi871]

Thanks Santi. Perhaps you could check OP and see let us know your thoughts. Should we get RWR launch warning when an ARH is fired in STT?

 

Every RWR is different, and what's more, anyone who knows the answer isn't going to tell you regardless of which specific RWR we're talking about.

 

But if we want to make assumptions and generalize, which is fine for DCS, I would say no, you shoudn't.

[hein22]

Every RWR is different, and what's more, anyone who knows the answer isn't going to tell you regardless of which specific RWR we're talking about.

 

But if we want to make assumptions and generalize, which is fine for DCS, I would say no, you shoudn't.

 

Roger. I'm very confused about why we have a simulation that shows the opposite behavior.

[Stubbies2003]

Every RWR is different,

 

 

True but regardless of RWR you are using it must be able to sense that something has changed (PD to CW as an example) or it must be able to sense the datalink. If it could sense the datalink then there is no method of launch that the RWR couldn't detect it.

 

 

and what's more, anyone who knows the answer isn't going to tell you regardless of which specific RWR we're talking about.

 

 

Very true. This wasn't my area of work in the USAF and obviously if it was I wouldn't be talking about it here. I learned this info by studying for my BMS F-16 virtual flying way back in the day. The above logic will still hold true though. The RWR must be able to sense something to warn about it. If it can sense it in STT then it could also sense it in SAM/TWS.

 

 

But if we want to make assumptions and generalize, which is fine for DCS, I would say no, you shoudn't.

 

 

We aren't going to get any better than that. Educated guesses and working on logic.

[Santi871]

Exactly. Things like "can X RWR detect Y signal" are very closely guarded secrets. So it's a matter of seeing why the current assumptions/logic are the way they are. I didn't code it so I have no idea.

[nighthawk2174]

Just wanted to add that CW stopped being a thing on US jets in the 70's except for a few exception ANG F16's for example. The reason was that the AIM-7M can't home in on CW it only homes in on PD signals.

[dundun92]

Just wanted to add that CW stopped being a thing on US jets in the 70's except for a few exception ANG F16's for example. The reason was that the AIM-7M can't home in on CW it only homes in on PD signals.

That had to do with the monopulse seeker correct?

[nighthawk2174]

Yes the monopulse seeker was apparently incompatible with the CW or CWD signals used by US aircraft.

[dorianR666]

I think you do get warning, side lobes command datalink is what gives it away.

but then shouldnt it trigger launch warning to unrelated aircraft in the area too? i assume the missile datalink is emitted into a large space and not beamed precisely at the missile.

[Callsign JoNay]

but then shouldnt it trigger launch warning to unrelated aircraft in the area too? i assume the missile datalink is emitted into a large space and not beamed precisely at the missile.

 

^

^

This.