312_JS Posted June 8, 2020 Share Posted June 8, 2020 As stated in several dead threads. Right now the Spitfire spawns with the stick off center if you use a FF joystick. You have two options, either offset the sticks physical centre or tryming. Both create major issues. If you offset the stick externally, you end up with constant elevator impulse (plus it's akward to have only 1/3 of travel for pushing), which messes up the axis curves since the centre is not in the centre of the axis curve. If you have a curvature set on the axis, which you need for a Spitfire in my opinion, and decide to pul from a level flight for example, you have to overcome the curvature twice (first to the centre and second from the centre). If you trim to compensate, you have to trim 3.5 divisions nose down, which, together with the stick impulse, obviously creates additional drag. Other aircrafts are unafected by this, and the moment I connect a non-FF joystick, the problem goes away. Thanks a lot for your time, hope this gets sorted out finally. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
312_JS Posted June 14, 2020 Author Share Posted June 14, 2020 Hello? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bailey Posted June 16, 2020 Share Posted June 16, 2020 (edited) Here is what I observed with the Spitfire and a Microsoft Sidewinder FFB2. When starting the Takeoff Instant action, my controls overlay is like yours in the first post. When starting airborne the control overlay has the diamond centered. The trim wheel seems to be in the correct relative position for both instances. I didn't feel anything "odd" with respect to handling. I had to "Swap Axis" in the spitfire FFB Control menu though. Trim worked as expected in both instances. I did not have curves in my joystick. Let me know if there is a specific way i can test or help. Edited June 16, 2020 by Bailey DCS VoiceAttack Profiles | My Mods and Utilities on ED User Files | DiCE: DCS Integrated Countermeasure Editor DCS Update Witching Utility | DCS-ExportScripts for Stream Deck Community Github Library Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ED Team Yo-Yo Posted June 16, 2020 ED Team Share Posted June 16, 2020 As stated in several dead threads. Right now the Spitfire spawns with the stick off center if you use a FF joystick. You have two options, either offset the sticks physical centre or tryming. Both create major issues. If you offset the stick externally, you end up with constant elevator impulse (plus it's akward to have only 1/3 of travel for pushing), which messes up the axis curves since the centre is not in the centre of the axis curve. If you have a curvature set on the axis, which you need for a Spitfire in my opinion, and decide to pul from a level flight for example, you have to overcome the curvature twice (first to the centre and second from the centre). If you trim to compensate, you have to trim 3.5 divisions nose down, which, together with the stick impulse, obviously creates additional drag. Other aircrafts are unafected by this, and the moment I connect a non-FF joystick, the problem goes away. Thanks a lot for your time, hope this gets sorted out finally. There is no use to tweak this Spitfire distinctive feature. The normal trim you can see as you start the plane in the air. One tick nose up indicated, stick centered, elevator LE up a bit. Trim the plane in normal way for take off, flight , landing , etc, only for zero hinge force or any force you prefer. And, for sure, no curves fo FF device for pitch. If you find this control too sensitive, just add a linear ~ 50% saturation. Ніщо так сильно не ранить мозок, як уламки скла від розбитих рожевих окулярів There is nothing so hurtful for the brain as splinters of broken rose-coloured spectacles. Ничто так сильно не ранит мозг, как осколки стекла от разбитых розовых очков (С) Me Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
312_JS Posted June 16, 2020 Author Share Posted June 16, 2020 Sorry Yo-Yo, but you are wrong. Before I make screenshots showing the ridiculous trim settings needed for a level flight (and the acompanied excessive drag), please answer me, why it doesn't happen with nonFF joystick and why it doesn't happen for other airplanes either. PS: The DCS Spitfire definitelly needs curves, especially for pitch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
312_JS Posted June 16, 2020 Author Share Posted June 16, 2020 (edited) Non-FF: 320 mph MSFF2: 312 mph Both screenshots are from the Free Flight Instant Action. Notice the speed difference too. Edited June 16, 2020 by 312_JS 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
312_JS Posted June 16, 2020 Author Share Posted June 16, 2020 The normal trim you can see as you start the plane in the air. One tick nose up indicated, stick centered, elevator LE up a bit. That's the problem. With nonFF joystick that's how I fly. But with the FF, the stick is not centered when I start the plane (ground or air) and I have to compensate with nose down trim, which in turn, messes up everything else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
312_JS Posted June 16, 2020 Author Share Posted June 16, 2020 Here is what I observed with the Spitfire and a Microsoft Sidewinder FFB2. When starting the Takeoff Instant action, my controls overlay is like yours in the first post. When starting airborne the control overlay has the diamond centered. The trim wheel seems to be in the correct relative position for both instances. I didn't feel anything "odd" with respect to handling. I had to "Swap Axis" in the spitfire FFB Control menu though. Trim worked as expected in both instances. I did not have curves in my joystick. Let me know if there is a specific way i can test or help. If you could post a screenshot of a trimmed airplane (full RPM, full Boost), and your axis settings, that would help. I know about the Swap Axis issue, but interestingly, it was not my case (it was my friends though). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bailey Posted June 16, 2020 Share Posted June 16, 2020 If you could post a screenshot of a trimmed airplane (full RPM, full Boost), and your axis settings, that would help. I know about the Swap Axis issue, but interestingly, it was not my case (it was my friends though). im not a WW2 pilot by trade, but here is what i got Its pretty much exactly the same as non-ffb. DCS VoiceAttack Profiles | My Mods and Utilities on ED User Files | DiCE: DCS Integrated Countermeasure Editor DCS Update Witching Utility | DCS-ExportScripts for Stream Deck Community Github Library Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bailey Posted June 16, 2020 Share Posted June 16, 2020 Oh, and FFB axis settings are literally default. Deadzone 0 Saturation X and Y at 100 Curvature 0 No Slider No Invert No User Curve For the TMWH I have: Deadzone 3 Saturation X and Y at 100 Curvature 15 No Slider No Invert No User Curve DCS VoiceAttack Profiles | My Mods and Utilities on ED User Files | DiCE: DCS Integrated Countermeasure Editor DCS Update Witching Utility | DCS-ExportScripts for Stream Deck Community Github Library Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
312_JS Posted June 16, 2020 Author Share Posted June 16, 2020 Looks like you are not flying straight. Notice the slip indicator. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bailey Posted June 16, 2020 Share Posted June 16, 2020 I had to move and get to the screenshot button :D DCS VoiceAttack Profiles | My Mods and Utilities on ED User Files | DiCE: DCS Integrated Countermeasure Editor DCS Update Witching Utility | DCS-ExportScripts for Stream Deck Community Github Library Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bailey Posted June 16, 2020 Share Posted June 16, 2020 But, i think it was fair to include that the non-ffb stick was indicating the same positions. DCS VoiceAttack Profiles | My Mods and Utilities on ED User Files | DiCE: DCS Integrated Countermeasure Editor DCS Update Witching Utility | DCS-ExportScripts for Stream Deck Community Github Library Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ED Team Yo-Yo Posted June 16, 2020 ED Team Share Posted June 16, 2020 Oh, and FFB axis settings are literally default. Deadzone 0 Saturation X and Y at 100 Curvature 0 No Slider No Invert No User Curve For the TMWH I have: Deadzone 3 Saturation X and Y at 100 Curvature 15 No Slider No Invert No User Curve I tried saturation Y 50% and (unexpectably :) ) it works the same way. To be serious - linear curves with no offset expected to work. I use MSFF2. Ніщо так сильно не ранить мозок, як уламки скла від розбитих рожевих окулярів There is nothing so hurtful for the brain as splinters of broken rose-coloured spectacles. Ничто так сильно не ранит мозг, как осколки стекла от разбитых розовых очков (С) Me Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ED Team Yo-Yo Posted June 16, 2020 ED Team Share Posted June 16, 2020 Non-FF: MSFF2: Both screenshots are from the Free Flight Instant Action. Notice the speed difference too. Is it the first or the second round of the IAS gauge? And I would be very greatful if you write numbers directly under the screenshots. Ніщо так сильно не ранить мозок, як уламки скла від розбитих рожевих окулярів There is nothing so hurtful for the brain as splinters of broken rose-coloured spectacles. Ничто так сильно не ранит мозг, как осколки стекла от разбитых розовых очков (С) Me Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
312_JS Posted June 16, 2020 Author Share Posted June 16, 2020 Start of a second round, level flight. 320 vs 312 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
312_JS Posted June 16, 2020 Author Share Posted June 16, 2020 I just did a test flight in a TF51 and there is absolutely no issue what so ever. I can apply any curvature I want and everything works as expected. Spitfire without curvatures is un-flyable on a competitive level, there is just no chance to be able to hold it completely steady because the linear inputs at the centre make it very unstable (MSFF2 doesn't have a hard centre so the stick wobbles a little bit) and you get blackouts just by gently pushing the nose down. Any reason why it is OK in a P51 but not in a Spitfire? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ED Team Yo-Yo Posted June 16, 2020 ED Team Share Posted June 16, 2020 I just did a test flight in a TF51 and there is absolutely no issue what so ever. I can apply any curvature I want and everything works as expected. Spitfire without curvatures is un-flyable on a competitive level, there is just no chance to be able to hold it completely steady because the linear inputs at the centre make it very unstable (MSFF2 doesn't have a hard centre so the stick wobbles a little bit) and you get blackouts just by gently pushing the nose down. Any reason why it is OK in a P51 but not in a Spitfire? I think, it is because they are different planes with different balance, so - with different required stick deflection. The curvatures in pitch for FF is the worse case in attempts to approach to the full-size stick. Try to use Y-saturation it solves the problem. Or use not deep curvature. Ніщо так сильно не ранить мозок, як уламки скла від розбитих рожевих окулярів There is nothing so hurtful for the brain as splinters of broken rose-coloured spectacles. Ничто так сильно не ранит мозг, как осколки стекла от разбитых розовых очков (С) Me Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
312_JS Posted June 16, 2020 Author Share Posted June 16, 2020 (edited) Come on mate. It's not about it being a different plane. It's clearly a software issue. If the Spitfire spawned with the elevator axis centred the same way it does with nonFF joysticks and/or other airplanes, there would be no issue at all. The saturation doesn't solve that, because it's still steep and you loose most of your range and you can't pull hard enough when you actually need to. Edited June 16, 2020 by 312_JS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ED Team Yo-Yo Posted June 16, 2020 ED Team Share Posted June 16, 2020 Come on mate. It's not about it being a different plane. It's clearly a software issue. If the Spitfire spawned with the elevator axis centred the same way it does with nonFF joysticks and/or other airplanes, there would be no issue at all. The saturation doesn't solve that, because it's still steep and you loose most of your range and you can't pull hard enough when you actually need to. There is a difference in trimming between FF and non-FF. Adding curvature to non-FF does nothing bad because trim just adds a bias to the value from the joystick. For FF-device nothing is added, but the actual force neutral point is shifted. Ніщо так сильно не ранить мозок, як уламки скла від розбитих рожевих окулярів There is nothing so hurtful for the brain as splinters of broken rose-coloured spectacles. Ничто так сильно не ранит мозг, как осколки стекла от разбитых розовых очков (С) Me Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
312_JS Posted June 16, 2020 Author Share Posted June 16, 2020 (edited) Great, then lets start trimming from 0 and not from -10%. Edited June 16, 2020 by 312_JS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
312_JS Posted June 18, 2020 Author Share Posted June 18, 2020 Could you please reconsider your possition? Why should I be at a disadvantage just because I use FF? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ViFF Posted June 18, 2020 Share Posted June 18, 2020 Non-FF: 320 mph MSFF2: 312 mph Both screenshots are from the Free Flight Instant Action. Notice the speed difference too. Hi, I also use MSSWFFB2 and the trim for level flight is just a bit nose down, much less than what you have in yuur second picture. If you need so much nose down trim to maintain stable pitch in level flight at 312 mph there is definitely something wrong with your setup. I will post later this evening a picture of my trim indicator according to the same flight parameters as yours. Cheers IAF.ViFF http://www.preflight.us Israel's Combat Flight Sim Community Website Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ViFF Posted June 18, 2020 Share Posted June 18, 2020 Here is what I observed with the Spitfire and a Microsoft Sidewinder FFB2. When starting the Takeoff Instant action, my controls overlay is like yours in the first post. When starting airborne the control overlay has the diamond centered. The trim wheel seems to be in the correct relative position for both instances. I didn't feel anything "odd" with respect to handling. I had to "Swap Axis" in the spitfire FFB Control menu though. Trim worked as expected in both instances. I did not have curves in my joystick. Oh, and FFB axis settings are literally default. Deadzone 0 Saturation X and Y at 100 Curvature 0 No Slider No Invert No User Curve I am getting the same as Bailey and Yo-Yo posted. Cheers IAF.ViFF http://www.preflight.us Israel's Combat Flight Sim Community Website Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
312_JS Posted June 18, 2020 Author Share Posted June 18, 2020 It's because of the curves. But flying a Spit without them is not feasible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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