M2K in multiplayer vs. fox3 opponents?

[rale26]

Last couple of days I spent some time in multiplayer and found a single useful tactics that works for me but I am interested to hear how you guys approach it.

 

I realized quickly that going 1v1 against fox3 is not going to work for me as they put me on defensive from get go and from too far away. So now I usually join the party when there are couple more guys around. It seems that once there are fox3 planes on both side nobody gives a damn about m2kc, we are low priority (thank god)! Anyway, I get in high and suuuuuper fast, make a quick kill and blast off towards the base. Not very chivalrous and I probably steal somebody's kill in the process :music_whistling:, but hey ... enemy is defeated, right?!

 

 

 

How do you guys go about fighting fox3 opponents in multiplayer?

[=36=Witcher]

I see nothing wrong with it, since this is the exact role a Mirage 2000C should do: the interceptor. If you try to use a Mirage as an air superiority fighter you're not going to use like it's supposed to, so it's your fault.

[Tiger-II]

I kill anything moving fast and towards me.

 

 

Mirage is predominently a light-weight fighter, but it later became multi-role, mostly dropping LGBs. A special nuclear strike varient was produced.

 

 

Don't be afraid of BVR - it's tactics that matter. It's not guaranteed to kill you. You've got performance and maneuverability on your side, so it should be easy to defend a BVR shot in the Mirage.

 

 

Mirage is capable.

[jojo]

Fly with a wingman.

Stick together.

If available, plug to human GCI with SRS, this is awesome.

[ZHeN]

a few previous threads on the topic:

https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?p=4303645

https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=246983

[Thinder]

High and fast is what the Mirage 2000 was designed for, or more specifically the M53P2 engine (see the link to doc below the picture).

 

Flying high and fast will provide you with some serious advantages in terms of energy in BVR, it will transmit it to your missile, while slower/lower adversary will see the range and NEZ of theirs shrink due to the fact that their missiles will have to trade it for altitude.

 

At least that's the theory and physics, I don't know how it translates to the game, but you should believe Jojo and when you are more confident start to take on Fox 3 adversaries.

 

Otherwise, here is an interception profile for Mirage 2000 C, in this case, it's for the Super 530 F, not the Super 530 D which will provide you with even better performances for intercept.

 

 

 

For your eyes only, Mirage 2000 fans, a document on SNECMA engines, very well documented, PDF format (should be easy to translate from French).

 

https://www.dropbox.com/s/qp3xfy67xksc7lx/COMAERO%2006%20-%20Lasserre%20Moteurs.pdf?dl=0

 

 

What I will personally train to do is to search for the best climb profiles for the DCS-simulated Mirage 2000 and train to get there at the desired speed, I'll see you around, guys!

Edited June 23, 2020 by Thinder

[jojo]

This is counter intuitive when used to US designation system, but Super 530D is more modern and efficient than Super 530F :smilewink:

 

F stands for Mirage F1

D stands for Doppler, like RDI radar (Radar Doppler Impulsion).

 

M53 engine was designed for a M2.5+/ M3 interceptor project that was dropped (MD.750). So yes, it was meant to fly high and fast.

Edited June 23, 2020 by jojo

[Thinder]

This is counter intuitive when used to US designation system, but Super 530D is more modern and efficient than Super 530F :smilewink:

 

F stands for Mirage F1

D stands for Doppler, like RDI radar (Radar Doppler Impulsion).

 

M53 engine was designed for a M2.5+ interceptor project that was dropped. So yes, it was meant to fly high and fast.

 

My bad, I should know, I served with the GERMAS at BA-102 Dijon in the mid-70, I always make the same mistake... Corrected.

 

I've been reading your posts for quite a while and you seem to know what you're talking about.

 

My question to you is; why don't you open a Mirage Academy and train newbies on it?

 

I'd join it, I just ordered the last part of my PC upgrade and should be able to start training myself end of this week or next Monday/Tuesday at the latest.

 

Something else, I intend in procuring a 60 channels Client release of Team Speak in the near future, so I won't have to mess about with other apps for coms.

 

Hope you'll consider, fly safe!

 

https://www.fighterpilotpodcast.com/episodes/084-mirage-2000/

Edited June 23, 2020 by Thinder

[RvETito]

Speed+altitude=life

 

The formula is particularly applicable for the Mirage online. Another option is to master the notching but the trouble is you can not apply offensive pressure on your own while notching and a fox 3 platform will have easy time closing on you. As someone posted above the key to proper multiplayer is in multiship cooperation i.e. having at least one wingman on comms. That unfortunately rarely happens. Most people think with their silly fox 3 seekers and it's mostly airquake what you can experience.

 

TBH, nowadays I'm almost done flying online due to massive incompetence I witness most of the time. Single player campaigns are much more meaningful it seems. For now..

[Thinder]

Speed+altitude=life

 

TBH, nowadays I'm almost done flying online due to massive incompetence I witness most of the time. Single player campaigns are much more meaningful it seems. For now..

 

 

I understand.

 

Reason why I posted such a request to Jojo, but this would address any competent Mirage 2000 flyer here.

 

My approach to DCS is different from that of a complete newbie in the sense that I already have thousands of hours in different sims, having started with Jane's IAF and such...

 

My last post was to RAZBAM, a request for info on their Mirage 2000 model best AoA/drag ratio and altitude/energy physics of their Super-530 D simulations, so as to take maximum advantage of the combo capabilities at high Mach and altitude and during maneuvers (energy management).

 

If you advanced guys want competent players as wingmen, you should consider training some, ATLC style if you see what I mean, people playing on their own rarely take good habits.

Edited June 23, 2020 by Thinder

[Oceandar]

Beat their DL and radar to get close. How to do it is your choice whether by notching, coackroach tactic or use other players as a bait with guidance of AWACS or GCI. Head on is also work with heater as long as you're close enough. I know several M2K pilots do this and I was a victim of this lol. Launch magic, pop some flares to disguise the smoke then turn cold and laugh lol.

[noxyd]

I only play in MP.

I have a different view than some in the previous replies.

 

I used to fly 40.000ft+ and gently free fall behind bandits for quiet magic shots.

I don't do this anymore (I miss this though!).

I find that altitude is of little help with datalinks and planes such as the F14 able to shoot from 40nm+.

Flying the F16 for a few months actually helped me change my way of flying in the Mirage.

 

I have better success flying low, using terrain as much as I can avoiding flat land at all cost.

Awacs, radar mostly off, turning it on only when going for the kill.

 

At close ranges, with its efficient CCM modes and very good missiles PK within NEZ, the Mirage is definitely a lethal aircraft.

[ZHeN]

annihilate the datalink provider and go back to your 50kft :)

[Thinder]

I was not looking for tactics, but something like this:

 

 

In short; the Mirage 2000 has true interceptor performances, Mach and ceiling.

 

M2.2+/60.000ft in reality, 59.000ft simulated.

 

This is a clear advantage in BVR against F-16/18s for the simple reason that their missiles will have to compensate for the difference in altitude and speed, having to trade their energy, while the Super-530 D will see its range and NEZ improved by virtue of the laws of psychic.

 

 

Now, this is an example showing the increase of range with altitude, with no indication of the target altitude/speed but it's a start.

 

As we can see, High and Fast is not only for the show, the Mirage will pass its energy to the super-530 D in a way F-16/18 won't be able to, it's not only about altitude but also speed, in theory, flying 30k higher and above M 1.6, it could double the Super-530 D range and enhance its NEZ considerably, while the AIM-120 would see their flight envelop and NEZ reduced.

 

Now, by memory, in my time a Mirage III-mounted Aim-9 B firing envelop would not go above M 1.7, and in the case of the Magic II it shouldn't be much higher, this is not due to the missile limitation but separation issues above those Mach, while in the case of the Super-530 D, as it is optimized for high Mach interception, this limit should be higher.

 

I will be conducting tests as soon as I can fly the Mirage safely, mainly climb-zoom and missile firing envelops, for the time being, I have asked RAZBAM for some information on both aircraft and weapons, but no reply so far...

 

 

Edited June 24, 2020 by Thinder

[jojo]

Go have a look on Chuck guide.

There are tables for optimum climb profiles. These are for MIL power.

 

I'am a little bit skeptical about you theory of flying super high to overcome AIM-120.

This flight profile will give AIM-120 tremendous range against you. And that high you won't be able to manoeuvre well, you will quickly deplete energy as soon as you turn.

 

AIM-120 has greater range than Super 530D. Apart from confusing their situational awareness to get in range, I don't really see a solution.

Going high and fast to go unobserved can be a trick, but not alone in one Vs one.

And it's more difficult now against Fox 3 shooters with L16 and AWACS support.

 

Finally, the Mirage 2000C isn't meant to compete with Fox 3 shooters post 2005. All Mirage 2000 clients are allied or in good term with NATO.

From 1997-1999 Mirage 2000-5F with Fox 3 Mica was in service, but not yet in DCS.

[noxyd]

Go have a look on Chuck guide.

There are tables for optimum climb profiles. These are for MIL power.

 

I'am a little bit skeptical about you theory of flying super high to overcome AIM-120.

This flight profile will give AIM-120 tremendous range against you. And that high you won't be able to manoeuvre well, you will quickly deplete energy as soon as you turn.

 

AIM-120 has greater range than Super 530D. Apart from confusing their situational awareness to get in range, I don't really see a solution.

Going high and fast to go unobserved can be a trick, but not alone in one Vs one.

And it's more difficult now against Fox 3 shooters with L16 and AWACS support.

 

Finally, the Mirage 2000C isn't meant to compete with Fox 3 shooters post 2005. All Mirage 2000 clients are allied or in good term with NATO.

From 1997-1999 Mirage 2000-5F with Fox 3 Mica was in service, but not yet in DCS.

 

I agree with you 100%.

And would also add that not only the AIM-120 range is greater, but the shooter will also be able to go defensive as soon as his missile goes pitbull, whereas as you said, you'll be down trying to maneuvre the Mirage at 50K ft, which is pretty much similar to flying a brick.

Lastly, the look down shoot down capability is not perfect, and you will easily loose lock doing so (at least in my experience).

[Thinder]

Go have a look on Chuck guide.

There are tables for optimum climb profiles. These are for MIL power.

 

I'am a little bit skeptical about you theory of flying super high to overcome AIM-120.

This flight profile will give AIM-120 tremendous range against you. And that high you won't be able to manoeuvre well, you will quickly deplete energy as soon as you turn.

 

AIM-120 has greater range than Super 530D. Apart from confusing their situational awareness to get in range, I don't really see a solution.

Going high and fast to go unobserved can be a trick, but not alone in one Vs one.

And it's more difficult now against Fox 3 shooters with L16 and AWACS support.

 

Finally, the Mirage 2000C isn't meant to compete with Fox 3 shooters post 2005. All Mirage 2000 clients are allied or in good term with NATO.

From 1997-1999 Mirage 2000-5F with Fox 3 Mica was in service, but not yet in DCS.

 

Thanks guys for your replies.

 

I understand your point, I am trying to find solutions for what I will have to fly with against those Fox 3 Shooters and figure out how the simulated weapons translate the equation energy vs range/NEZ.

 

If you look closely at the graphs, you have the option to chose either speed or altitude or both to increase your AAM energy (range and NEZ), while a shooter flying lower will see the performances of theirs going down significantly, that's the difference between the F-16/18 and the Mirage and the F-15 which were designed for high altitude interception.

 

At least that's for the theory, I have no idea how this does translate to the game itself, in any case as soon as I can I'll be conducting tests on my 2000 to try to determine the best flight profiles for zoom-climb and figure out the AAM gain in range with altitude and speed.

 

I know that in the real world, the Mirage pilots wouldn't even engage in supersonic in most situations apart for an intercept at high altitude, but it's a simulation and there is little to lose to figure it out.

 

Here are some examples: vs an F-18, the Mirage has a 1000Ft/mn advantage in maximum climb rate, 10.000Ft higher max ceiling and 0.4 Mach advantage which would probably not be within the firing envelop of the Matra Super 530 D but not far.

 

If you engage at the same level/speed, you're playing into the Hornet's territory, it is not designed for high-speed high-altitude intercept though, so even a 10.000Ft advantage in flight level should be possible before the initial engagement, and offer you an advantage in terms of weapon range, providing their simulation involves energy/range/NEZ.

 

What I am trying to do is to widen my options vs fox 3 shooters by using the platform superior performances instead of playing to their advantage.

Edited June 26, 2020 by Thinder

[Oceandar]

I agree with Jojo.

 

@Thinder you're free to try it out yourself in MP (PvP), really. With all those theories on your mind. Dont be surprised if those Fox 3 fighters eat you alive lol. Dont forget make a video for it and post it here (if you can).

 

Good luck and have fun

Edited June 26, 2020 by Oceandar

[jojo]

In BVR, try to keep speed around M0.9 to maintain high energy.

You can dash to M1.2-M1.4 to increase missile PK.

 

You have to make a compromise between flight profile and weapon system use.

You will get better missile energy if you shoot from above, but the target will break your lock by beaming.

I prefer to engage at the same altitude then dive to keep the target above horizon.

A shot in look up is much more dangerous.

 

IRL it would be group tactics to defeat enemy situational awareness.

And that’s where Link 16 comes into play, and the game isn’t fair anymore (but is shouldn’t be anyway).

 

So it’s best to choose servers which try to set a specific time frame with limited Fox 3 use.

 

If you play on full options servers and alone...you are at serious disadvantage.

You need to plug to human GCI/ AWACS, be ready to run out, use sneaky tactics to engage targets that are not expecting you.

MAV mode for the Magic can save your ass by acting like IRST (click on MAG button on PCA).

Unfortunately, radar to Magic slave doesn’t really work yet.

 

Depending on tactical situation, shooting a Super 530D to force the target on defensive is perfectly valid tactic. But you can’t play that game for a long time with only 2 Fox 1.

[ZHeN]

Depending on tactical situation, shooting a Super 530D to force the target on defensive is perfectly valid tactic.

not sure a lot of PvP-capable miragists support you in this tactic

 

can say for myself, I see this tactic as waste of precious resources, and baguette does not possess plenty of those

[Hawkeye_UK]

Day's of PvP flying high in the mirage is over - worst advice ever read.

 

Anyone flying high is going to get a 5 second max warning before dying to a 54 or 120 from a respective F14 or F16, especially in an E2/E3 theatre.

 

Far better to skulk around very low in hill's, avoiding E2/E3 on rwr, and try and get behind the threat. If you miss on the merge expect to face a 9x and an ejection.

[Hawkeye_UK]

What i would suggest is try and find a server that only allow's fox 1/2's so its more balanced, aka later cold war server than the guns only 15/sabre style.

[jojo]

not sure a lot of PvP-capable miragists support you in this tactic

 

can say for myself, I see this tactic as waste of precious resources, and baguette does not possess plenty of those

 

Of course you cut the following sentence where I already said that.

But if you are pressing a Fox 3 shooter that tries to recommit on you, and you have your 2 x Super 530D, you should do it or run home and land ASAP.

[ZHeN]

if you let Fox 3 shooter know of your presence you've already half lost the battle - it's one of the resources you simply dump with a "force defensive" tactic

[jojo]

if you let Fox 3 shooter know of your presence you've already half lost the battle - it's one of the resources you simply dump with a "force defensive" tactic

 

Then take off with 4 Magic and never turns radar on :music_whistling: