ecm question .

[littlejohn1959]

greetings . i am new to this game . i fly the a-10 mostly . single player .

maybe someone could enlighten me on the ecm .

i am doing this wrong , i am allmost certian .

i engage the ecm as soon as my a-10 is wheels up . but still gets knocked out of the sky with sams . i do evade some . ill get better as time passes , i guess .

is the ecm a big factor in the game?

could someone please enlighten me .

i did read the flaming cliffs manuel on ecm , but it really was the techinical part they were explaining .

i also did a search , but most people were talking about online play and the ecm being blinking etc .

to put things simple , what is the best way to use the ecm , with the a-10 .

thanks for reading .

cheers .

[D-Scythe]

greetings . i am new to this game . i fly the a-10 mostly . single player .

maybe someone could enlighten me on the ecm .

i am doing this wrong , i am allmost certian .

i engage the ecm as soon as my a-10 is wheels up . but still gets knocked out of the sky with sams . i do evade some . ill get better as time passes , i guess .

is the ecm a big factor in the game?

could someone please enlighten me .

i did read the flaming cliffs manuel on ecm , but it really was the techinical part they were explaining .

i also did a search , but most people were talking about online play and the ecm being blinking etc .

to put things simple , what is the best way to use the ecm , with the a-10 .

thanks for reading .

cheers .

 

 

Against the AI in general, ECM doesn't do anything.

[S77th-GOYA]

Against the AI in general, ECM doesn't do anything.

 

For SAMS it sure does.

 

By turning it on immediately/constantly, you will see very little difference between a SAM's paint range, lock range and launch range. Meaning, you will have shortened warning time of its position before it launches. Try waiting until it launches before turning it on. (and go defensive)

 

Different SAMs and situations call for different tactics so experiment with music-on and music-off at different times to see how it can help a Hog jockey. Knowing the SAM's location is a big determining factor on whether you want it on or off on approach.

[Groove]

Watching Ironhand`s excellent tutorial videos will help you to improve!

 

http://flankertraining.com/ironhand/news.html

[D-Scythe]

For SAMS it sure does.

 

By turning it on immediately/constantly, you will see very little difference between a SAM's paint range, lock range and launch range. Meaning, you will have shortened warning time of its position before it launches. Try waiting until it launches before turning it on. (and go defensive)

 

Different SAMs and situations call for different tactics so experiment with music-on and music-off at different times to see how it can help a Hog jockey. Knowing the SAM's location is a big determining factor on whether you want it on or off on approach.

 

Are you sure that the varying warning times on the RWR is a direct result of the AI engaging a jamming target differently? Or your RWR reacting differently? As far as I can tell, the range at missile launch is the same for both types of targets on the SAM's part.

 

I think it's the same story across the game - an AI in a Su-27 is gonna engage you the same, regardless if you're jamming or not. It's just that if you are jamming, you don't get a RWR warning. To me, it doesn't seem like SAMs are any different.

 

Jamming only screws up the targeting of other players in MP, and forces radar missiles into pure pursuit, in Lock On, from my experience.

[GGTharos]

Against AI SAMs, the ECM reduces lock range.

Unfortunately, in many cases when you enter lock range, you've in relatively good range for the SAM to shoot at you - you can still evade it, but it's 'closer'.

 

Essentially, against some SAMs the ECM allows you to aproach closer and shoot them, against others it prevents them from locking onto you until you're well inside their range, so when they shoot you evasion becomes more difficult.

This is the case for an S-300 for example; it will burn through at about 20nm, which is still range enough for you to turn around and run if you're flying low, but in an A-10, if you're really high at this point, it might be quite a problem.

[littlejohn1959]

Watching Ironhand`s excellent tutorial videos will help you to improve!

 

http://flankertraining.com/ironhand/news.html

 

yes , indeed . i did watch quite a few of those . thats when i learned the evadeing part . i am getting better . i wasnt sure if the ecm would help me out some . i will try turning it on when the sam launches , then give it my best shot at evadeing . no doubt , it is a tricky peice of bussiness for someone new . but its fun .

sometimes i can lock him up with the 65d before he can lock me , but thats only sometimes . i guess i was expecting the ecm to help me out .

anyways , ill change my tactics .

thanks much for the replies .

have a great weekend .

cheers .

[S77th-GOYA]

Are you sure that the varying warning times on the RWR is a direct result of the AI engaging a jamming target differently? Or your RWR reacting differently?

 

Ultimately, what difference does it make?

 

A. Flying with jam on, RWR suddenly lights up, warns a lock and then a launch.

 

B. Flying with jam off, RWR suddenly lights up pointing out the SAM bearing*, then in a bit, warns a lock, then in a bit warns a launch.

 

Scenerio B gives much more time to attempt to find and destroy the SAM.

 

Scenerio A lets you know of the presence of a SAM by a missile homing on you.

 

I can't swear how ED modeled things to achieve what is seen on the RWR. I can say that in some circumstances the RWR display seems very unrealistic in that on the outside edge of the pre-lock paint envelope, turning on ECM will remove the SAM from the RWR altogether. Whether the SAM radar is jammed or not shouldn't change whether the RWR detects an emitter.

 

* Or close to it because the angle is off a bit on the A-10 RWR

[HowlinWolf]

The DECM pod on the A-10 is probably only a Deception Repeater, in essence it does not Jam anything. It only receives the incoming signal, amplify it, and play with either range or azimuth and re-transmit the signal back pulse for pulse. It amplifies the signal to raise the AGC of the enemy receiver to hide your real echo return, the closer you get the easier it is for the transmitter to burn through your signal. Real DECM (Defensive Electronics Countermeasure) have pre-determined signal thresholds that determine when it will respond to a specific Threat Radar signal when inbound, and when it will stop transmitting on the outbound run. I don't know how these guys modeled the ALQ on the A-10, so I can't tell you. I worked on DECM in the Navy for 20 years. Pilots self tested the gear with dummy loads before flight and then turned it off before launch. After they are a good distance away they turn it back on and put the system in Standby Mode. At a predetermined distance from target they would transition from "Standby" to "Repeat", and when the Plane got within lethal range the system measures the signal strength and would turn itself on and begin repeating/transmitting. It's only there to help you get in and get out quickly... not loiter....Other than that I can't really go into detail on how it works...............:censored:

 

 

aka: ~BeoWolf~ :pilotfly:

[littlejohn1959]

Ultimately, what difference does it make?

 

A. Flying with jam on, RWR suddenly lights up, warns a lock and then a launch.

 

B. Flying with jam off, RWR suddenly lights up pointing out the SAM bearing*, then in a bit, warns a lock, then in a bit warns a launch.

 

Scenerio B gives much more time to attempt to find and destroy the SAM.

 

Scenerio A lets you know of the presence of a SAM by a missile homing on you.

 

I can't swear how ED modeled things to achieve what is seen on the RWR. I can say that in some circumstances the RWR display seems very unrealistic in that on the outside edge of the pre-lock paint envelope, turning on ECM will remove the SAM from the RWR altogether. Whether the SAM radar is jammed or not shouldn't change whether the RWR detects an emitter.

 

* Or close to it because the angle is off a bit on the A-10 RWR

 

as i said , i am new , but your scenerio b sounds much better .

i will leave it off , until the sam is launched .

could you please explian '' the angle is off a bit on the a-10 rwr"?

thanks .

cheers .

[S77th-GOYA]

could you please explian '' the angle is off a bit on the a-10 rwr"?

 

If a radar is on your exact 12, it doesn't appear to be on your exact 12 on the RWR. I'm referring to level flight. Changes in attitude can make spikes appear to be in very odd directions.

[littlejohn1959]

If a radar is on your exact 12, it doesn't appear to be on your exact 12 on the RWR. I'm referring to level flight. Changes in attitude can make spikes appear to be in very odd directions.

 

much thanks for the heads up .

cheers .

[A.S]

lil hint Part 1

 

ECM is a large topic i cant cover it here totally ( suggest looking for Wiki ) ..but keep in mind LockOn has his own way of modelling that topic.

 

but at least i can give u a short nice read ....

 

 

Jammer

 

Basics

 

The jammer works very well in AA combat as it does against older SAM's, but

only if used correctly. Here's what it can do for you in a simple example. A

good human pilot with a jammer facing a good human pilot without as

jammer will have the ability to deny first lock first launch capability if his

opponent is in a similar platform (F16 versus F16 both with slammers).

Whilst this doesn't guarantee first kill, it is a distinct advantage. If I fire a

missile at 22 miles before the other guy gets a lock and can fire a missile at

me, he is immediately at a disadvantage and has some choices to make

rather quickly. He can continue to charge straight at me in hopes of getting

to burn through and getting a shot off, while at the same time running the

risk of being killed by my early launched slammer, or he can choose to

defend against the incoming shot, which will then more than likely miss, but

thus allow me the opportunity to close for a much higher Pk follow up shot

which will be more difficult to defeat. Either way he dies!

A jammer works best from head on or tail aspect and within a certain altitude

difference. It is pretty ineffective in the beam. To test if the jammer works

and how it works, go BVR with a human opponent (both of you in F16's to

make everything equal) first with and then without a jammer. Fly straight at

each other.

Without jammer, you'll get a first radar contact at about 50 miles. Before this

you'll see nothing. The contact, once it appears, stays on your scope without

jumping around. You can't get a bug at this range, but you can get an

altitude by putting the radar cursors over it.

With jammer, you'll see a jamming contact from perhaps 80 miles, but you

cannot bug it and cannot get altitude readout from the cursors. The contact

will "strobe" or jump around the B scope. You'll have no idea what range he's

at until he gets closer.

You can bug or lock from 40 miles of more if your opponent is without

jammer. With jammer, the jammer will prevent a radar from locking on you

for a certain length of time, but eventually as the range closes, the attacking

radar will "burn through" the jamming and acquire a lock. The distance it

does this is dependant on the power of your jammer and the power of his

radar, together with any variables such as aspect and altitude difference that

affects the performance of the attacking radar. Mostly it will be about 20

miles, known as "burn through". Use of jammer outside 20 miles will deny a

bug or lock and deny a missile launch unless you wish to fire maddog, which

outside of 20 miles has a very low Pk.

The slammer has a home on jamming (HOJ) capability, but it needs to know

where your target is in order to go HOJ. This means you must bug a target

first by getting to burn through range. If your opponent is foolish enough to

keep his jammer on once inside burn through distance, he's no longer

denying first lock, first launch, but instead he's acting as a slammer homing

beacon. So when your opponent is only 20 miles away from you, turn off

your jammer.

The jammer is an active emission that can be seen on your radar scope.

Using it advertises your presence from much longer ranges that you could

normally hope to detect a target. You will see a jamming target even with

your radar in standby. You don't need to emit a signal intended to bounce

back from him. Your radar can detect the signal he's emitting all by itself. A

radar signal is nothing more than a noise ping which has a frequency and a

wavelength. A jammer tries to match the frequency and wavelength but at

180 degrees phase thus cancelling out the signal, but the jammer signal

itself is a perfect source for your radar to detect.

You may not wish to use your jammer at long ranges because of this factor,

but you'll probably wish to use it once you are sure that he knows you're

there. You'll want to do this before he spikes or locks you, not when you are

hard spiked. By then it's often too late. If he spikes or bugs you, he's got

altitude, range, bearing, aspect and course on you and can use this

information to his advantage. He may have already fired a missile. Once the

radar has locked on to you and all the power of the attack radar is focused

on you, it's harder for the jammer to break the lock than it is for the jammer

to prevent the lock in the first place. Very often, once locked, turning the

jammer on will not break the lock, but again it depends on range, aspect and

other variables which you'll have to be flexible in assessing when to use your

jammer.

Using it too soon will give the enemy an early indication that you are out

there. He'll get a bearing on you from much further away than he could

normally do. If he's a team player with wingmen, this allows him to set up a

bracket or a posthole or try some other BVR tactic much earlier than he

would otherwise be able to do.

Used at the correct time, you won't give away your position too soon, but

you'll be able to deny a radar lock or bug and missile launch until much

closer than you would without a jammer.

Once inside burn through distance the jammer is actually a slammer or AA12

homing beacon like mentioned before. You just have to know when to use it

and when to turn it off and understand what it is you are trying to achieve at

any given range by using it. The guy who understands how his jammer

works, how his radar works and how his missiles work will have the

advantage over the guy who doesn't.

[A.S]

Part 2

 

The F16 is equipped with an electronic warfare system (EWS), placed in the

left auxiliary console. It allows automatic countermeasures when a missile

launch is detected by the radar warning receiver (RWR). It can automatic

release chaffs or flares and turns on or off the jammer. That depends on

what EWS main mode you use:

OFF: The system is completely turned off and you can’t release chaffs or

flares.

STBY: Turn the EWS in stand-by if you want to program one of the default

programs.

MAN: Manually launch the selected chaff/flare program.

SEMI: Automatic chaff/flare release when needed and Betty calls Jammer

when a radar spike is detected to ask if you want to turn on your jammer.

AUTO: Automatic chaff/flare release when needed and automatic use of the

jammer. Be careful with this option because it will also turn on the jammer

when a missile with HOJ capabilities is fired.

In beyond visual range (BVR) combat against platforms equipped with AA12's

or slammers, the missile can be launched without STT lock, therefore no

missile launch warning will be generated and chaff/flares will not be

automatically released regardless of the EWS mode being in SEMI or AUTO.

The jammer will be switched on when a spike is detected if you are in AUTO,

but you may not wish to do this since a spike may indicate a missile in the air

and able to go HOJ if the jammer goes on. I usually fly with the EWS mode in

SEMI to prevent the jammer coming on unless I turn it on, but I also have to

release chaff/flares manually against a BVR opponent with AA12's or

slammers fired in TWS or RWS mode as opposed to STT. I'll use programme

1 for BVR which is just chaff, but I'll switch to programme 2 (chaff and

flares) if it looks like I'm going to the merge and the enemy has AIM 9's, AA

11's or other heater combinations as well.

This is an example how I use my jammer. In most cases, I'll be jammer off

until I reach about 35/40 miles. Once I'm at this range, I can be pretty sure

that the bandit knows I'm there. He'll be seeing my paint on his RWR and

he'll also be able to see me on his radar so I'm not too worried at this stage

about revealing that I'm there. At this point I'll put my jammer on and leave

it on (for now). What I'm trying to do now is deny him the ability to lock or

bug me with his radar and deny him an early missile shot until I can close

the range a bit to either get a bug/lock on him or get a higher Pk shot. If he

allows me to bug him at 30 miles, I might pop off an early slammer anyway,

just to see if I can force a response from him. The Pk might be low but he

may make a mistake that I can exploit when he sees there’s a slammer

inbounds.

Once I get close to the range I know that his radar will be able to burn

through my jamming, I'll turn jammer off and leave it off. What I'm doing

now is to prevent him from being able to fire a slammer or AA12 at me that

will immediately go HOJ. If he gets a HOJ shot, he can turn and run away. I

might not even get a shot at him, while I'm forced to deal with his missile.

I'd rather do that to him than have it done to me.

[A.S]

Part 3

 

Home on jamming

 

Before starting with HOJ you have to know this:

A-Pole: Distance from launching aircraft to target when a missile begins

active guidance.

F-Pole: Distance from launching aircraft to target when a missile

endgames/impacts.

E-Pole: Distance from a threat aircraft that evasive manoeuvres can be

expected to kinematically defeat any missile the bandit is launching or could

have launched.

When you shoot a slammer at an opponent who’s using his jammer, the

missile will go HOJ. Does a HOJ or a normal shot have a higher Pk? Not a

simple answer to this question for slammers or AA12's. Missile firing range

and closure has a bigger impact on Pk than guidance. A missile fired at 10

miles head on has a high Pk, while fired from the rear in a tail chase has a

low Pk, regardless of its guidance method. A missile fired at close range will

go pitbull off the rail and is very hard to defeat. Likewise, a missile that goes

HOJ at close range will be hard to defeat as well. At longer ranges, especially

outside E pole, the Pk will be low regardless of guidance method. The main

advantage of getting a HOJ shot is that the missile goes autonomous earlier

and needs no further help from you. This means you are free to break lock

and bug out or engage another target and do not have to support the missile

through its data link phase until autonomous. A HOJ shot is effectively

extending your A pole. If your A pole is bigger than his, you have an

advantage. Against SARH such as AA10's or AIM 7's, all you need to do is

break the launch platforms STT lock at any time during the missiles flight and

you will defeat the missile. How you do this (jammer, chaff or beaming)

doesn't matter. The missile looses guidance and will usually go ballistic or

self detonate without guidance. ARH missiles don't. If there's one in the air,

it's dangerous to friend and foe alike. Without guidance, they'll head towards

the last computed intercept point and switch on their radars and look for a

target. First one they see, they'll try and intercept, so defeating the launch

platforms radar isn't always enough. You have to get out of the missiles field

of view or escape the missile kinematically. With ARH missiles, it's a sensible

precaution to make sure there are no friendlies close to your intended target.

If the bad guy breaks your bug/lock before the missile goes pitbull, the

missile will simply arrive at a point in space and turn on its radar and look for

the first available target. If your wingman is between you and the target you

fired on, it might well be him.

[A.S]

ohter sources

 

http://www.simmersworld.com/default.php?page=article1&nr=1&id=638

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electronic_counter-countermeasures

[S77th-GOYA]

could you please explian '' the angle is off a bit on the a-10 rwr"?

 

[vCSG3 Bloat 203]

=RvE=--AS--, this was an awesome, awesome read. Many thanks from a newbie pilot!

[159th_Viper]

Use your E.C.M. when enagaging and Neutralizing SAM systems. As stated, different SAM systems require different approaches, but with the Hawg not being a SEAD platform in any event, the most you'll be called upon to deal with should "realistically" be Short Range SAM systems.

 

This will further be whittled down to Radar SAM systems such as TOR systems and the like as your E.C.M. will be pretty useless against the likes of a Shilka/Strela etc etc.

 

Take the TOR as an example: In the LockOn world painfully easy to neutralize in two runs. Ingress at 2000m AGL with E.C.M. off. Draw first Launch, engage E.C.M. and wait for missile to self-destruct, usually immediately.

 

Toggle E.C.M. off and await next launch. Repeat for 4 launches, break 180 degrees and extend. Re-Acquire, Ingress and repeat as above. Two runs at the SAM will see the SAM out of Ammo. Enagage with Cannon and Move On :D

 

 

(Disclaimer: Above tested and proven with T-Bird: No idea if same with Hawg but principle remains the same)

 

 

 

All SAM's have their own quirks/best methods of dealing with them from a Groundpounders' perspective in the LockOn world, the above being just one example. It's up to you to experiment/practice and find the best way to deal with the Given Threat in any given situation.

 

One fact however remains - use it as a "Weapon" in itself. Used selectively and wisely, it will always save your Bacon if you play your cards right. Better to RTB with No Kills than get Splashed with 20 Kills.........:)

[littlejohn1959]

Use your E.C.M. when enagaging and Neutralizing SAM systems. As stated, different SAM systems require different approaches, but with the Hawg not being a SEAD platform in any event, the most you'll be called upon to deal with should "realistically" be Short Range SAM systems.

 

This will further be whittled down to Radar SAM systems such as TOR systems and the like as your E.C.M. will be pretty useless against the likes of a Shilka/Strela etc etc.

 

Take the TOR as an example: In the LockOn world painfully easy to neutralize in two runs. Ingress at 2000m AGL with E.C.M. off. Draw first Launch, engage E.C.M. and wait for missile to self-destruct, usually immediately.

 

Toggle E.C.M. off and await next launch. Repeat for 4 launches, break 180 degrees and extend. Re-Acquire, Ingress and repeat as above. Two runs at the SAM will see the SAM out of Ammo. Enagage with Cannon and Move On :D

 

 

(Disclaimer: Above tested and proven with T-Bird: No idea if same with Hawg but principle remains the same)

 

 

 

All SAM's have their own quirks/best methods of dealing with them from a Groundpounders' perspective in the LockOn world, the above being just one example. It's up to you to experiment/practice and find the best way to deal with the Given Threat in any given situation.

 

One fact however remains - use it as a "Weapon" in itself. Used selectively and wisely, it will always save your Bacon if you play your cards right. Better to RTB with No Kills than get Splashed with 20 Kills.........:)

 

thats more like the awnser i was looking for . not to complicated . i am new to this .

i have another question?

sometimes , when a sam launches , i gets an audiable tone , and the rwr blinks ,which in turn gives me an idea where the missle is coming from .

i does my best , [ with help from ironhands videos ] , to dive , bank , and head for the sky , and shoot flares of course . alot of time i can evade the missle . but i dont allways get an audiable tone . thus, its cntrl eee for me .

should i get an audiable tone with all launched missles?

i apprecitate all the help an replies here .

cheers .

[159th_Viper]

............

sometimes , when a sam launches , i gets an audiable tone , and the rwr blinks ,which in turn gives me an idea where the missle is coming from .

i does my best , [ with help from ironhands videos ] , to dive , bank , and head for the sky ,and shoot flares of course . alot of time i can evade the missle .but i dont allways get an audiable tone . thus, its cntrl eee for me .

 

 

Will only get Lock/Launch tone with Radar SAM systems - as RWR indicates (Radar Warning Receiver).

 

Now with the Incoming Missile being Radar Guided, Dumping a lotta Flares is about as useless as searching for a Fart in a Perfume Factory - It's not gonna happen!

 

Dispense Chaff to spoof Radar Missiles and save the Flares for the I/R SAM systems, eg Iglas, Strelas and the like.

 

 

With Infra-Red guided SAM systems you will get no launch tone. You have to visually spot the Launch and then go defensive accordingly, dumping a lotta Flares. In such cases it is always better to have your Wingman in Trail to help spot launches whilst on Ingress.

 

 

Further thing - Altitude is your Friend: Engage at Altitude and if Engaged defensive Dive and extend at Weed-Level. Will ensure you have Speed and will drag any incoming missiles into the ground. Do not "Head for the Sky" whilst your RWR is screaming........you're Courting Disaster!

 

 

Best advice here is to study the In-Game Encyclopedia and get acquainted with all the SAM systems so that you are able to visually ID them as Radar or I/R, thus enabling you to plan your strategy accordingly :)

[Brit_Radar_Dude]

If you don't know what type of missile has been fired at you, drop chaff and flares.

 

If you do know for sure what missile has been fired at you, then only drop chaff for radar guided. Only drop flares if you know it is an IR missile.

 

The default when you drop both at the same time is 2 flares and 1 chaff. That means that you run out of flares earlier than chaff.....and Murphy's Law says that will happen just at the worst time for you.

[littlejohn1959]

i got ALOT to learn . when my wingman spotted a launch , i figured they were firing at him .

i did spot a few missles [ without the rwr tone ].

and i did manage to evade ,,, some of em . sometimes i can see a launch in the tv screen , useing the 65 mavs . then i gets all excited, and and does everything WRONG , while trying to evade it .

flares going everywhere . a-10 going everywhere . ha ha .

it will take a while for me to play , CAT AND MOUSE , no doubt .

i will try some of the tatics mentioned here .

the 65d mav , is my buddy . i can get some fair shots on threats .

i need to learn more about what is being launched at me . that will help alot .

its all new . time and practise will make it better, im thinking .

i have to read ALOT , as well .

i sure got more enlightment with the replies here .

i think ill view ironhands videos a bit more closely also .

again , thanks for all the replies .

this is a great place to learn .

no doubt .

hats off .

cheers .