KH-66 & launch authorization / abort lights

[Althar93]

Hello all,

 

I have acquired the Mig21bis as my first DCS module and, despite a few minor issues which need ironing out (SAU recovery oscillations and Radar causing frame drops) I am having a blast. I've easily spent about about 10-15 hours just going through and practicing the training / scenarios but there is one training mission and weapon I am curious about : the KH-66

 

Should the launch authorization and/or abort lights work at all when using the KH-66 Grom weapon? It seems that everytime I run through the training mission, be either in the locked point or beam riding mode, I can aim at the ships and watch the range needle move but the two lights either side of the ASP never turn on when I would expect them to. I can release the weapon as early or late as I want and it will connect but I do not get a visual cue that I am in range to release the weapons (although I do believe I get a continious chime at some point in the dive).

 

Is the authorization light only for bombs? I have read through the module's manual and through a guide I found off the internet but none of them seems to mention if the lights should come on or not.

 

Thanks in advance

[Frederf]

The -22 radar was never designed to deliver the Kh-66. You'd have to go back to the -21 radar version and/or guess how the sight would have been set up for it if it did.

 

Since it's a fictional capability it's a theoretical question. The shoot and breakaway ranges for the Kh-66 are going to be quite long and the needle range only goes up to 2000m in AG mode so don't think the sight can accommodate anything longer. If memory serves the S-5 and S-24 rockets have separate launch and breakaway ranges, gun too so I can't see why at least some of those features would be available for Kh-66. Since accuracy isn't such a function of range launch light would probably be omitted but breakaway I'm guessing would feature somehow.

[Althar93]

Thanks for the reply.

 

"Kh-66 are going to be quite long and the needle range only goes up to 2000m in AG mode so don't think the sight can accommodate anything longer" - Didn't think of it that way. I guess the range information goes up to 5km on the gauge but the launch authorization and break lights might tie into the center range gauge?

[Art-J]

If I recall correctly, In real thing these lights were intended to be used for cannon and unguided rockets only, to indicate the optimal fire/launch parameters given the ballistic drop of rounds/rockets. They serve no purpose then for a guided missile (as long as its engine works, of course) so I wouldn't be worried about them in that particular case.

[Frederf]

That gauge that goes up to 5km has nothing to do with the range to the target. It's a kinematic range for AA missile shooting. If you're fast, up high, with a good missile the needle will show more range than slow, down low, with a poor missile. It's an estimate of missile performance. The fact that it displays range to locked target in DCS is a mistake.

 

Welp DCS has changed I swear S-5 and S-24 rockets (and gun) used to have breakaway light ranges. Now it's all the same at 1200m for everything. There's so much goofy about the DCS sight that it's hard to have a serious discussion of it. There are real PFOI paragraphs that say the breakaway light range should be dependent on the weapon employed. I don't know if it will switch while in flight or if it is something set on the ground manually. It should be the case at least if solely S-24 is carried that light comes on at 1600m (used to in old DCS version).

 

There is another problem with DCS sight in that it thinks when in "CC" that it uses 1-9km scale which is not realistic except for very specific scenario. If AA-AG switch is AG then it should always be in 2000m max. I would think if nothing else sight would treat Kh-66 and S-24 the same since they are using the same weapon select switch position (all switches same position really as far as sight knows). Breakaway at ~1600m would be the overriding priority (it is a big boom).

 

Kh-66 was an interim weapon and I don't know how much work was put into integration or even how sophisticated MiG-21PFM sight and radar was. It was RP-21 spin scan so probably can't provide radar ranging during guidance? Did -21PFM have slant range unit of bis? Would it even be useful with shallow delivery? How steep should Kh-66 be delivered?

[AeriaGloria]

That gauge that goes up to 5km has nothing to do with the range to the target. It's a kinematic range for AA missile shooting. If you're fast, up high, with a good missile the needle will show more range than slow, down low, with a poor missile. It's an estimate of missile performance. The fact that it displays range to locked target in DCS is a mistake.

 

Welp DCS has changed I swear S-5 and S-24 rockets (and gun) used to have breakaway light ranges. Now it's all the same at 1200m for everything. There's so much goofy about the DCS sight that it's hard to have a serious discussion of it. There are real PFOI paragraphs that say the breakaway light range should be dependent on the weapon employed. I don't know if it will switch while in flight or if it is something set on the ground manually. It should be the case at least if solely S-24 is carried that light comes on at 1600m (used to in old DCS version).

 

There is another problem with DCS sight in that it thinks when in "CC" that it uses 1-9km scale which is not realistic except for very specific scenario. If AA-AG switch is AG then it should always be in 2000m max. I would think if nothing else sight would treat Kh-66 and S-24 the same since they are using the same weapon select switch position (all switches same position really as far as sight knows). Breakaway at ~1600m would be the overriding priority (it is a big boom).

 

Kh-66 was an interim weapon and I don't know how much work was put into integration or even how sophisticated MiG-21PFM sight and radar was. It was RP-21 spin scan so probably can't provide radar ranging during guidance? Did -21PFM have slant range unit of bis? Would it even be useful with shallow delivery? How steep should Kh-66 be delivered?

 

You assume the Safir 22 giving you slant range is not also a fictional capability:)

 

That being said I thought it was removed recently

[Frederf]

-22 radar does dive slant range during AG attack. It's not an assumption it's written in the manual.

[AeriaGloria]

-22 radar does dive slant range during AG attack. It's not an assumption it's written in the manual.

 

I always thought it was fictional, you mean the real manual? Interestingly enough the DCS One surprisingly even states it will provide slant range with radar not even in locked beam mode, on page 143

[RedeyeStorm]

I am having a problem with hitting ships in the training mission. The first missile is with radar lock and the remarks say to put the pipper just below the ship. The missile impacts way short of the ship. Subsequent missions I have put the pipper on the ship, beyond the ship but the missile always impacts short. I did have a lock indicator on the radar and ASP17.

 

 

 

Same thing when using the Beam rider mode. It impacts short even with steeper dive angles (30 degrees) and the pipper square on the ship.

 

 

 

Haven't flown it in a while so am I doing something wrong or is it DCS?

 

 

Never mind. The problem is that when I press 'refly' the sight is borked. I managed to hit just fine but you have to select the training mission a new and not press refly. Damm those DCS quirks.

Edited August 27, 2020 by RedeyeStorm
Problem solved

[AeriaGloria]

-22 radar does dive slant range during AG attack. It's not an assumption it's written in the manual.

 

I stand corrected, took a look at the real manual and realized I’ve been an idiot all these years and obviously have never focused on the air to ground aspect of it as much as it deserves. It’s clear now that that is an extremely capable system, and I’m even more impressed by the 21. Interestingly enough the manual also stated that locked beam mode on the 22 only locks the radar to boresight, so maybe that’s why the DCS manual states it doesn’t need locked beam for air to ground ranging, it’s technically not needed but really required to get an accurate solution.

 

Just did my first air to ground run in the Fishbed in what must be years, feels great

 

I guess one reason I might’ve held on to it being fictional is it sounds almost to good to be true. It must’ve been a revolution back then to be able to use the radar for ranging to be able to fire at more then pre arranged angles and heights. It makes me wonder why there aren’t more attackers with radar, but I guess the laser revolution took over

Edited August 27, 2020 by AeriaGloria

[rossmum]

The A-7 used beam slant range too, IIRC, though with a much more advanced avionics fit to work with it. It wasn't unheard of, but it wasn't a common feature in older or less complex aircraft.