Su-30MKK Full fid or FC3 version?

[FlankerFan35]

13 hours ago, Silver_Dragon said:

Let's remember a few points that seem to be forgotten. This is not a passion for an aircraft and "ED or a 3rd party make me the module". ED has already made it abundantly clear that if there is no proper authorization from the appropriate government/military establishment and no open source documentation to allow for the module to be made (not a leaked document on the internet), they are not going to get into legal trouble or go to jail for a module. They (ED) have repeatedly said this with Soviet and Russian modules (and even more so with the current situation in Russia), and the closest they can currently make is a Mig-29A FF module. This applies equally to any FC module, even a simplified model. The same with any system or armament, without verified, real and approved data, no changes will be made.

The other point is that we are moving in circles about a version of a Chinese Su-30MKK and J-10A/B, and that ED has no responsibility in this problem. It's the 3rd party Deka that has to modify the J-10 module (and cockpit) for those improvements to take place, so let's not try to lead the discussion back to "ED doesn't want to do it for us" or the "DCS World is a NATO simulator" discussion again, it's complete nonsense.

Respectfully, we know all this already. At the end of the day there is not one modern FF gen 4 redfor (no the JF-17 doesn't count) and however long that lasts and for whatever reason it can't happen...it's annoying to watch module after module come out or be announced for blue from 3rd gen to 4.5 gen so it makes people upset.

Alas, this is a thread dedicated to asking for a nearly bare minimum redfor gen 4 (MKK) so we should probably get back to it.

[Irisz]

The video shows the armament of the Su-30MKK and the Chinese Su-30MKK simulator during combat!

I won't comment on what kind of simulator they play with, everyone can see it!

Edited June 20, 2024 by Irisz

[FlankerFan35]

2 hours ago, Silver_Dragon said:

ED don't go to make them a chinese version and actually it is impossible to make a russian version... you only can expect Deka to make them, and don't go to jail for them. Remember the J-8PP. 

Or a new 3rd party with Chinese government approval appears.

 

MKK thread.

[F-2]

Technically there is no Russian MKK. They have a small number of Su-30m2 but those are MK2. The Su-27sm is also MK2 based. MK2 as far as I can tell is China only with some late J-11A using the avionics. Obviously though it is similar but I think some things are different. 

[jojyrocks]

At the very least, an early level Su-30 or Su-27...I suppose it is asking too much.

[Irisz]

Su-30MKK Radar and visual map of the earth's surface!

DEVELOPMENT OF WEAPONS CONTROL SYSTEMS FOR FIGHT AVIATION

in the world) into the anterior hemisphere. The maximum distance in the world) in the front nose of the krestrebitel is 50 km. The composition of 03PS includes the Cem of the not found sight of the NSC OEPS TsVM, which also carries out 27. firing from a cannon and the use of weapons not at earthly prices

THE SWORD IS IMPROVING

NIIP im. V.V. Tikhomirova continues to work on improving the radar station 2001 “Me. Modernized version. “Mecha” is installed on production Su-30MKK aircraft manufactured by KNAAPO for the Chinese Air Force. The work on pairing this indicator with the medium-range air-to-air missile R-77 (RVV-AE) has been completed. Currently, the second stage of modernization of this radar is underway - the development of air-to-surface modes. Test launches of Kh-31A anti-ship guided missiles were carried out, receiving target designation from a radar operating against sea targets in low-resolution mode. Testing has begun in high-resolution mode when working on ground targets. The Su-30MKK is the second one to receive the new designation Su-30MK2. Currently, aircraft of this type are in serial production for a foreign customer.

The strategic course of the NIIP management is to use the new generation processors “Baguette-55” developed by the Korund Design Bureau. The results obtained on radars equipped with these processors (in particular, in the Doppler beam narrowing mode) are no worse than those of the most advanced foreign analogues.

The software created within the framework of the Su-30MKK and Su-30MK2 programs is expected to be implemented in other programs, in particular, during the modernization of the Zaslon complex and even on a fifth-generation aircraft. After all, if new hardware, as domestic and world experience shows, can be created in three to four years, then to work out the “mathematics” for 40-50 modes (namely, this is the number of modes that the onboard radar complex of a fifth-generation fighter should have) requires at least seven years. The program currently being implemented will significantly improve the performance of the processor. In two to three years, the productivity of Baguette should be increased by more than 40 times.

According to a similar scheme, work is underway to gradually modernize the NOO1 radar of the Su-27 and Su-27UB aircraft of the Russian Air Force (the modernized aircraft, designated Su-27SM, began to enter combat units at the end of 2003). Provided

sing Rizhinov robdum mapped station 1001: “air detection of ground-based signals, flapping and determination of one’s own speed itself Tank build-up of the computer processor KOS due to the introduction of a modern processor (both salted in parallel with the receiver) allows the station to solve Complete tasks in the air-to-air mode (ultra-range detection , recognition of target type, recognition of targets in a group, work on helicopters, etc.). moving

At the next stage of modernization, it is planned to give the locator the possibility of dual-purpose tracking, which will provide the Su-27 with the ability to directly launch two missiles with radar or body guidance at two targets. The practical operation of this mode (intended, first of all, for implementation in the Russian Air Force, modernized over the years) began in May 2002. At the end of the year, the ultra-long-range detection system was tested in a real flight.

[Irisz]

Just a detail of my usual daily data collection that points out other things so that we can see clearly!

"The new fighter-bomber was based to a
great extent on the design solutions previously
adopted for the Su-27SK and the single-seat
fighter Su-27M. The first Su-30MKK was built in
the spring of 1999, and made its maiden flight on
May 20, 1999. The Su-30MKK exported to China
is equipped with the RLPK-27VE radar sighting
system, fitted with a N001VE (“Slot Back”) track-
while-scan coherent Pulse-Doppler radar (with
expanded air-to-ground capabilities, including
terrain-mapping, and moving target indication).
The main upgrades adopted in the N001VE radar
(when compared to the older N001E variant) are
its ability to simultaneously engage 2 of the 10
targets tracked, its improved digital processing
ability (with a BCVM-486-6 processor), and
compatibility with the RVV-AE/R-77 MRAAM.
N001VE’s search and target
acquisition/engagement ranges are practically
identical to the performance displayed by the
earlier N001V version."

 

Aircraft Models Equipped with N001V Radar

1. Sukhoi Su-27:

   • Su-27SK: The export version of the Su-27, widely used by various countries including China and Vietnam.
   • Su-27SM: An upgraded version of the Su-27S with modernized avionics and radar capabilities.

2. Sukhoi Su-30:

   • Su-30MKK: Export version developed for China, featuring the N001VE radar.
   • Su-30MK2: Enhanced version with N001VEP radar, used by China, Vietnam, Venezuela, and Indonesia.

3. Shenyang J-11:

   • J-11A: Chinese license-produced version of the Su-27SK, which utilizes the N001V radar.
   • J-11A MLU: Mid-life upgrade version of the J-11A with the N001VE radar.

Edited June 28, 2024 by Irisz

[F-2]

At 2:56 you see DCS J-11 and at 3:08 you see what looks like dcs Su-30mkk

[Wyvern]

It is good to see you are still here on the forum as you mentioned you were leaving. I understand the frustration you have but repeating it wont change anything in this case.
We would all love to see more redfor jets in DCS, but there are rules to follow, eventually however I am sure we will see more.  
thank you

I hope so too.
I wonder, now that MAC got shelved, does it mean we COULD  get some more modern Red in form of an FC type aircraft? Maybe something like the Su-30 mod?
It did some impressive progress in terms of multirole FC abilities, with custom TWS, and AG/SEA radar, guided AG weapons, a custom RWR, NAV mode, and and and, all in one package.

Sure there would be people that would be upset its not a fullly clickable plane, but if its the only way, i think it would be an acceptable compromise.
If I remember correctly Deka said 2 years ago that their Su-30MKK is quite far as an internal project. Even the early variants should still be sufficient, with TV and SEAD weaponry.
Correct me if I am wrong, but from what i can tell, all the original Su-30MKKs have been upgraded to MK2s or "MK3" with chinese components, meaning the Su-30MKK isnt in service as that anymore.

I dont want to sound like an echo, but the only Red modern plane being a Half-half jet is kind of disappointing (even tho the Jeff is amazing).

I think our most modern red plane is a mid-90s Flanker, while the majority of the Blue planes early to mid 2000s. It makes fighting a complete uphill fight, especially when their most modern missile is the AIM-120C, while the R-27 family isnt complete/fully implemented capability and variant wise.
Its great that the R-27 actually is able to regain track again, after it being broken for about a year. While the way its implemented isnt exactly correct from what i know (i may also be misinformed) the result is still the same, which for a currently FC3 locked missile is absolutely fine.

It would be interesting to have a R-27EP variant, which is basically an R-27E with a Passive seeker, designed against Tomcats and AWACS.
The functionality exists in the game, the implementation that the Project Flanker Mod team has is quite good.

Long Story short,

Will we ever get the R-27EP, and are there any FC type modern aircraft planned to fill the Redfor gap?

[Dr_Pavelheer]

I seriously doubt passive seeker missile would be of any usefulness against a tactical jet, MAYBE if it's guiding a SARH missile at the launch aircraft or using simple barrage jamming.

There is a good reason why everybody took the ARH route instead

[Irisz]

R-27EP maximum 200 km searching capability and 110 km ballistic range, the target does not change direction. Otherwise the R-27ET infrared search head is also effective enough for such missile launches. Especially if ED were to modernize the missile's seeker, about which we already gave him enough information, which would make the R-27ET even more effective than the R-27EP! The Russian and Chinese air forces have moved on to active radar seeker heads and long range air to air missiles. I only ask one thing, you launch the R-27EP into a radar radiation and another fighter enters in its direction to search for a target. What if it turns to a friend? I still say the R-27ET works in about the same passive way, and the range of the no escape zone is the same as the R-27EP. I have various situations where the missile would be useless because the target simply changes direction and there is nothing to follow. 110 km ballistic range is not enough to destroy an AWACS, at this distance there is no incompetent person who allows an AWACS to fly without air defense. R-37M - PL-15 - PL-21 and you don't fly over air defenses.

We already talked about it in another topic, unfortunately ED prevents him from helping or allowing Deka to do something with the J-11A. As I mentioned earlier, the Su-30MKK is not better in air to air combat because it uses the same missiles as the J-11A. The Su-30MKK has higher drag, so it is even slower. ED also said that they cannot manufacture weapons after 2015 because they are a complete military secret. Here we go back to the J-11A again, why is it not at MLU level, why is it just an R-77 hack.

Edited September 14, 2024 by Irisz

[Chizh]

49 минут назад, Irisz сказал:

R-27EP maximum 200 km searching capability and 110 km ballistic range, the target does not change direction. Otherwise the R-27ET infrared search head is also effective enough for such missile launches. Especially if ED were to modernize the missile's seeker, about which we already gave him enough information, which would make the R-27ET even more effective than the R-27EP! The Russian and Chinese air forces have moved on to active radar seeker heads and long range air to air missiles. I only ask one thing, you launch the R-27EP into a radar radiation and another fighter enters in its direction to search for a target. What if it turns to a friend? I still say the R-27ET works in about the same passive way, and the range of the no escape zone is the same as the R-27EP. I have various situations where the missile would be useless because the target simply changes direction and there is nothing to follow. 110 km ballistic range is not enough to destroy an AWACS, at this distance there is no incompetent person who allows an AWACS to fly without air defense. R-37M - PL-15 - PL-21 and you don't fly over air defenses.

 

We have quite adequate modeling of the R-27 family of missiles. We have enough official documentation on these missiles collected in the pre-war years, when this was not persecuted as it is now. Unfortunately, there is almost no information on the 27P. We have not been able to find a single pilot who has seen this missile. There is an assumption that its effectiveness is very low, so it is almost not in the inventory of the Russian Air Force.

As for the range, everything is relative. If you launch such a missile from a satellite, it will have a global range. 

[Irisz]

10 minutes ago, Chizh said:

We have quite adequate modeling of the R-27 family of missiles. We have enough official documentation on these missiles collected in the pre-war years, when this was not persecuted as it is now. Unfortunately, there is almost no information on the 27P. We have not been able to find a single pilot who has seen this missile. There is an assumption that its effectiveness is very low, so it is almost not in the inventory of the Russian Air Force.

As for the range, everything is relative. If you launch such a missile from a satellite, it will have a global range. 

I have passed several R-27 missile tests, I can launch at an altitude above 17 km, even then it does not fly over a distance of more than 100 km! The R-77, on the other hand, would be capable of 120 km if you let it have a bigger battery!

 

Edited September 14, 2024 by Irisz

[Chizh]

В 30.08.2024 в 20:12, Wyvern сказал:

I wonder, now that MAC got shelved, does it mean we COULD  get some more modern Red in form of an FC type aircraft? Maybe something like the Su-30 mod?

No. This plane is classified in Russia.

В 30.08.2024 в 20:12, Wyvern сказал:

I think our most modern red plane is a mid-90s Flanker, while the majority of the Blue planes early to mid 2000s. It makes fighting a complete uphill fight, especially when their most modern missile is the AIM-120C, while the R-27 family isnt complete/fully implemented capability and variant wise.

You are wrong. The F-16C and F/A-18C were developed in the mid-1980s, just like the vanilla Su-27S that is presented in the game. In the Russia the vanilla Su-27 and MiG-29 were the main air force until the 2010s. So there is complete parity here. These planes are the same age.

В 30.08.2024 в 20:12, Wyvern сказал:

Will we ever get the R-27EP, and are there any FC type modern aircraft planned to fill the Redfor gap?

We have no information on the operation, and most importantly on the effectiveness of this Р-27Р. Therefore, there are no plans for it yet.

3 минуты назад, Irisz сказал:

I have passed several missile tests, I can launch at an altitude above 17 km, even then it does not fly over a distance of more than 100 km! The R-77, on the other hand, would be capable of 120 km if you let it have a bigger battery!

The range of a missile is limited primarily not by the battery and energy, but by the ability to targeting.

[Irisz]

11 minutes ago, Chizh said:

The range of a missile is limited primarily not by the battery and energy, but by the ability to targeting.

If you watch the video, the missile still has enough speed, but its battery is running out. Elsewhere, it has a battery life of 90 seconds, unfortunately not here!

Edited September 14, 2024 by Irisz

[Chizh]

5 минут назад, Irisz сказал:

If you watch the video, the rocket still has enough speed, but its battery is running out. Elsewhere, it has a battery life of 90 seconds, unfortunately not here!

Questions about the battery should be directed to the Vympel NPO

[FlankerFan35]

5 hours ago, Chizh said:

You are wrong. The F-16C and F/A-18C were developed in the mid-1980s, just like the vanilla Su-27S that is presented in the game. In the Russia the vanilla Su-27 and MiG-29 were the main air force until the 2010s. So there is complete parity here. These planes are the same age.

 

29SMT was first inducted indeed in 2009 the 27SM was inducted in 2004 with 27SM3s arriving in 2010s with the F/A-18C and F-16C in DCS being from mid 2000s. Reason these are not in DCS is classified nature not time period.

[Creampie]

  

On 9/14/2024 at 6:18 AM, Chizh said:

You are wrong. The F-16C and F/A-18C were developed in the mid-1980s, just like the vanilla Su-27S that is presented in the game. In the Russia the vanilla Su-27 and MiG-29 were the main air force until the 2010s. So there is complete parity here. These planes are the same age.

 

The variant of the frankly put Frankenstein F/A-18C in DCS is roughly 2004-06... There is no "parity"

The variant of the flanker that would most likely be allowed to be in DCS as a FF module is the MKK, It is not classified. 

At this point the community of red enjoyers would be happy with a FF27, But for some reason yet another plane that isn't classified doesn't get put into DCS as a FF module. While grateful for the FF29 coming, The worst possible solution of doing something other than blue was picked.

 

[FlankerFan35]

Finally able to confirm what's been guessed at as likely for ages, MKK can and does use PL-8B and PL-12.

[F-2]

2 hours ago, FlankerFan35 said:

Finally able to confirm what's been guessed at as likely for ages, MKK can and does use PL-8B and PL-12.

@uboats you might like this

[okopanja]

On 9/14/2024 at 12:29 PM, Chizh said:

Questions about the battery should be directed to the Vympel NPO

Is the table from a page of abook published in Russia, early 2000s(appeared somewhere in this forum) the only reference stating operation time of the turbogenerator, or you have more solid information to confirm it?

@Iriszdo you have any solid proof?

IMHO: being a SARH missile, the longer power supply would not greatly enchance the effectivness, only in some specific edge cases.