can no longer reproduce [REPORTED]Issues with AGM-65E and TGP

[imacken]

This thread is just going round in circles. I wish BN would jump in and comment here.

[Recluse]

Looks like there might be some Relief in the new OB patch according to BIGNEWY on discord. Thinking it is related to these. I definitely experienced the one with the building, but hoping it also fixes the intermittent issue with "normal" targets.

• AGM-65E Will not fire on a building if the MAV is SOI - Fixed
  
• Weapon volume for AIM-9X adjustment - Fixed
  
• FPAS descent distance - Fixed
  
• Paddle switch and Pinkie button animation switched - Fixed
  
• TAC Menu does not show the weapon option unless the stores page has been selected - Fixed
  
• Fixed indication of AGM-65E
  

Did some quick testing in the OB after today's update and it SEEMS to be fixed! Anxious to see if it is similarly working for others who were affected.

[imacken]

Sorry to say but the patch makes no difference to the issue being discussed here. Still necessary to make FLIR SOI to get a lock on the MAV.

[Recluse]

Sorry to say but the patch makes no difference to the issue being discussed here. Still necessary to make FLIR SOI to get a lock on the MAV.

 

CRAP.. sorry to hear that.. I was feeling good about it in limited testing with the OB after patch.

[Bearfoot]

Sorry to say but the patch makes no difference to the issue being discussed here. Still necessary to make FLIR SOI to get a lock on the MAV.

 

I have not tried the patch yet. However, there is this line:

 

AGM-65E Will not fire on a building if the MAV is SOI - Fixed

 

While everyone is referencing the stuff about E will not fire after F launched stuff, it seems that the above might be related to the bug discussed on this thread? Not sure why the description is limited to "a building" though ...

[Recluse]

Well, in one of my experiments, I was finding that I could get the Mav-E to behave correctly against Vehicles but when I tried it against a STRUCTURE (Oil Rig) I HAD to put TDC in the FLIR DDI. After the patch, I can now attack Oil Rigs with the TDC in the MAV page. In the short test I did, I could attack an Oil Rig, a Vehicle and another STRUCTURE added in the MB with the TDC in MAV page. So it SEEMS fixed for me..(with n=1) but not for everyone as imacken has posted

[imacken]

As I said, the issue being discussed here is not ‘fixed’, if in fact it is a bug.

[Wizard_03]

From page 178 of the manual:

"The TDC must be depressed, uncage signal applied, sensor control switch moved, or a target designated to lock on (this commands slew, which allows lock-on)."

 

So if the target is designated with LPOD, then, with SCS, assign TDC priority to DDI with Mav page, (uncaging seeker), THEN the SCS needs to moved again in the case of established designation (or a target needs to be designated) to command slew followed by lockup, then we can fire.

 

Seems to me this is the exact behavior we are seeing, you need to move the SCS again after uncaging (uncaging accomplished by either by SCS toward the DDI with Mav page or pressing Uncage button) to command slew.

 

 

 

[Recluse]

Well I believe at this point the manual is out of date, and the issue is NOT commanding SLEW but actually getting the ON TARGET Seeker to lock on the laser. I thought it was fixed in the new patch (at least for me) but not quite. Here's a track I made with the spiffy new FTT mode of the AG Radar in the Open Beta. With TDC in the MAV page and Laser Firing (I was actually HOLDING DOWN the pickle this time) I waited till 3 miles before giving up and switching the TDC to the FLIR page whereupon it locked immediately and I could fire for effect.

 

Interestingly, using an FTT track with the RADAR, the FLIR tracks the mover without the "normal" Point Track Symbology..

FTT_MavE.trk

[Wizard_03]

But its saying there is a difference between uncaging (Mav seeker moves to designation point) and slew action, (Mav locks up the lased spot.) and that's everyone's issue right, Right? Can't fire after you un-cage, because it wont lock until you move TDC priority with the SCS. The manual is saying exactly that you need to move the SCS back again after uncaging to command slew action, so it can lock up?

[Recluse]

But its saying there is a difference between uncaging (Mav seeker moves to designation point) and slew action, (Mav locks up the lased spot.) and that's everyone's issue right, Right? Can't fire after you un-cage, because it wont lock until you move TDC priority with the SCS. The manual is saying exactly that you need to move the SCS back again after uncaging to command slew action, so it can lock up?

 

But for many of us, it works or worked with the TDC in the MAV page some of the time, most of the time or all of the time. It is all over the place now where for some people it NEVER works.

 

I believe the manual was written before SELF LASING was a thing and refers to a JTAC or Buddy Lase. IT says so on Pg 171 of the latest manual I have.

 

AGM-65E Laser Maverick: This is a 641-pound missile containing a laser-guidance system and solid fuel rocket motor. The guidance system automatically locks-on and tracks targets being illuminated by a properly coded laser illuminator (from a targeting pod or JTAC). Until the targeting pod is integrated, we will use JTAC laser designation.

 

I find the instructions given kind of incomprehensible by the current switchology. If you watch any of the later tutorial videos, they do not use that extra SCS movement. Here is a Grim Reaper video from June 2020

 

 

Start around 5:00 min

[Wizard_03]

 

But for many of us, it works or worked with the TDC in the MAV page some of the time, most of the time or all of the time. It is all over the place now where for some people it NEVER works.

 

I believe the manual was written before SELF LASING was a thing and refers to a JTAC or Buddy Lase. IT says so on Pg 171 of the latest manual I have.

 

 

So it ALWAYS works for me, following the manuals procedure. The missile doesn't know you have a LPOD. It shouldn't matter where the laser is coming from as far as the missile is concerned. So therefore Just because you have a system designation created by the LPOD or whatever about where the laser is going to be pointing doesn't mean that it will automatically lock up once you press weapon release, Because according to that statement from the manual, in the uncaged state (Missile Carrot coincidence with TD diamond) the missile still needs to be allowed to slew itself onto the detected laser and attempt a lock.

 

The only difference with the lpod is you need to have both uncaged AND allowed for slew action prior to pickling (exactly the same steps for off board lasing just with a very abbreviated search phase) because the auto lase won't start until you press and hold weapon release, otherwise the missile will detect the laser but it won't lock on it because it can't slew itself further until you press SCS and allow it to lock the laser that is now firing from the lpod.

 

Its the same with uncaging Fs it will go to about where the target is attempt a lock, but it typically still needs to be manually slewed onto the target to get a contrast lock just uncaging to the TD diamond won't work usually. The E works the same way it still needs to slew onto the laser, just uncaging it is not enough unless the laser is already firing.

[Bearfoot]

As someone noted, we keep going round and round in circles.

 

Fact is: it works one way for some folks, another way for others. Consistently. And contra to documentation.

 

And so, presumably, some of us are dealing with buggy behavior while the others of us are dealing with correct behavior.

 

Parameters are ALL the same across trials, and set up for good launch -- uncaged, good designation, laser in FOV, within range, missile armed, yada yada yada yada yada ....

 

It's great that folks continue to contribute their personal experiences on how they fire laser mavericks. Lots of lessons to be learned. But what would be extra helpful is if folks that think they have an insight into what's happening actually take the trouble to view the (MANY) tracks posted on this thread, and specifically apply their expertise to comment on those tracks to see how this follows what they think should be happening (or not). That way, we are actually talking to each other about the issue.

 

 

 

[imacken]

I really don't know where we are with this. This morning I tried several of the tracks here and some work, some don't, sometimes the missile goes nowhere near the designated target, etc. etc.

As I have said several times here (and on the other thread) I wish that ED would step in and give us some answers here. For the moment, I guess we have to stick with having to make the TPOD SOI to get a reliable locking situation. That still could be correct behviour.

[Recluse]

I wish that ED would step in and give us some answers here. For the moment, I guess we have to stick with having to make the TPOD SOI to get a reliable locking situation. That still could be correct behviour.

 

Amen, brother..

 

 

[Wizard_03]

I mean, why wouldn't you want to assign TDC priority to the FLIR page? From a tactical perspective, If your self designating and you need to switch track modes change polarity or refine the target post launch, you're going to need to be there anyways. Plus IMO a huge benefit of using laser Mavs with the pod is you hardly need to screw around with missile at all, because you can do everything from the FLIR page.

[imacken]

I mean, why wouldn't you want to assign TDC priority to the FLIR page? From a tactical perspective, If your self designating and you need to switch track modes change polarity or refine the target post launch, you're going to need to be there anyways. Plus IMO a huge benefit of using laser Mavs with the pod is you hardly need to screw around with missile at all, because you can do everything from the FLIR page.

 

Yep, that's all true. However, you have to go to the Mav DDI to uncage the missile anyway. Why should you HAVE to go back to the TPOD to get a lock? It may be realistic, I don't know.

[Recluse]

 

Yep, that's all true. However, you have to go to the Mav DDI to uncage the missile anyway. Why should you HAVE to go back to the TPOD to get a lock? It may be realistic, I don't know.

 

Also, I am sure you saw this item in the last OB release.for the F/A-18.

 

AGM-65E Will not fire on a building if the MAV is SOI - Fixed

 

...which seems to be at least a TACIT acceptance by ED that the AGM-65E SHOULD be able to fire when MAV is SOI (aka TDC on Mav sensor)

 

We just want some official word that MAV-E laser lock SHOULD or SHOULDN'T be dependent on the position of the TDC.

[imacken]

Not convinced by the building 'fix' being relevant to our discussion. For me, the issue only occurs on moving targets. With static targets, I can lock, fire and hit from the Mav DDI every time, and that convinces me that this is a bug,

 

[Bearfoot]

I mean, why wouldn't you want to assign TDC priority to the FLIR page? From a tactical perspective, If your self designating and you need to switch track modes change polarity or refine the target post launch, you're going to need to be there anyways. Plus IMO a huge benefit of using laser Mavs with the pod is you hardly need to screw around with missile at all, because you can do everything from the FLIR page.

 

Which is all fine and dandy in the spirit of speculative discussion, but does not really address as to whether or not this is a bug and if it should be fixed.

[Recluse]

Not convinced by the building 'fix' being relevant to our discussion. For me, the issue only occurs on moving targets. With static targets, I can lock, fire and hit from the Mav DDI every time, and that convinces me that this is a bug,

 

I had that EXACT thing happen to me when trying to target an OIL RIG. I could target stationary vehicles in the same mission, but the "structure" objects refused to lock. I like to think it was my report that got it fixed, but probably not. NOW I can attack the Oil Rigs just fine without moving the TDC, but, like you, Moving targets are problematic AND even stationary vehicles can show the behavior intermittently. That is what makes this so insidious, everyone has DIFFERENT experiences.

[Noluck]

L-MAV OP's is also broken here after last update. Same steps as I have been doing in the past. Hold Weapon Release Button (WR) down no longer fires the laser like it used to. Use the [Trigger] mode, hold down the trigger then press WR the MAV will lock and launch.

 

[rob10]

L-MAV OP's is also broken here after last update. Same steps as I have been doing in the past. Hold Weapon Release Button (WR) down no longer fires the laser like it used to. Use the [Trigger] mode, hold down the trigger then press WR the MAV will lock and launch.

 

It's working fine for me. 2 things to check: did you make sure Laser is armed (it automatically shuts itself off after each shot) and is the MAV uncage before you press WR to start laser firing.

[imacken]

L-MAV OP's is also broken here after last update. Same steps as I have been doing in the past. Hold Weapon Release Button (WR) down no longer fires the laser like it used to. Use the [Trigger] mode, hold down the trigger then press WR the MAV will lock and launch.

 

Yep, works perfectly OK for me as well.

[Recluse]

 

Yep, works perfectly OK for me as well.

 

Even for Moving Targets? Without TDC elsewhere from the MAV page, laser won't lock on movers for me. Everything else works. Thought this was your issue as well?