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Force Feedback Joysticks?

Steve Davies

By Steve Davies
in DCS: Ka-50 Black Shark

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Bucic

Bucic

Posted
Posted

From what I know MiG-29A has no mechanical feedback on it's stick. Altough there is a system to artificial implement forces on the stick according to current flight conditions providing the right feel for the pilot. Forces on the stick are higher during low level/high speed flight and lower during high altitude/low speed. There is also an extremely high probability that Su-27 is also equiped with similar system. Values on the ground are available in the MiG-29 manual. I doubt that entire algorithm is described there though.

 

As for western a-c's - Idon't know.

 

So having a Force Feedback joystick can be interesting experience providing that FF in LO is implemented right. I mean artificial force algorithm should only differ from the real one by Constant value optionaly adjustable in game.

 

Can any tester/developer team member give a word on that matter?

https://akaagar.github.io/briefing-room-for-dcs/

F-5E simpit project https://forum.dcs.world/topic/318106-f-5e-simpit-cockpit-dimensions-and-flight-controls/

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Phantom_Mark

Phantom_Mark

Posted
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Yes, sadly so, this is what finaly decided me on retaining the standard stick handle, I could not live without the twist rudder. Looked cool tho, with a little soldering and extending of the inner cable I was able to retain full functionality of the Saitek handle. With my version I extended the internal cable and made a new hole in the rear of the MSFF, cable wrapped this to my existing USB output cable to keep things neat, then that fed into the base much the same as yours.

 

Well done for figuring out how to keep the rudder !! I would have kept mine if I had done that bit as well :)

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Cosmonaut

Cosmonaut

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I'm glad I'm not the only one still carrying the Force Feedback 2 torch :D. I've had mine since 2000 when they first came out and its seen me through IL2, Fs2000 to Fs9, Flanker and Lockon FC.

 

I got lucky about two years ago when in a PC store they had a brand new one up for sale at a third of the price, so I grabbed it and have been using it ever since, leaving my original one with the green light and hard plastic grip as a spare.

 

Unfortunately I don't use FFB in LO:FC becasue of the lack of control I experience with all aircraft and when you trim the stick is pulled forward which just makes it too uncomfortable to fly. When you trim you're trying center the stick so you don't have to maintain a forward or back pressure but what happens in LO:FC is just bizzare. Also I have to run a separate program to control the centering force but this actually works quite well becasue I can increase or decrease the tension while flying :) .

 

Finally:smilewink: Does anyone know if Black Shark will truly support force feedback? I'm hoping so becasue the forces that work on the AFM models are just awesome.

Cozmo.

[sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]

Minimum effort, maximum satisfaction.

 

CDDS Tutorial Version 3. | Main Screen Mods.

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Phantom_Mark

Phantom_Mark

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Also I have to run a separate program to control the centering force but this actually works quite well becasue I can increase or decrease the tension while flying :) .

 

Which util is this please ???

 

OT:

 

I have also used the internals of this fine hardware to build a force feedback gearshift unit for sim racing, the damned things are built like a tank, gives a very solid base for such projects.

 

Clicky Thumbnail......

 

th_SANY0053.jpg

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Cosmonaut

Cosmonaut

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Which util is this please ???

 

OT:

 

I have also used the internals of this fine hardware to build a force feedback gearshift unit for sim racing, the damned things are built like a tank, gives a very solid base for such projects.

 

Clicky Thumbnail......

 

th_SANY0053.jpg

 

I just uploaded it: it's called RTC and it's funny you mention racing sims becasue it was made for the M$SW racing wheel. I got the tip from M$ Flightsimulator crowd when searching for the issue with my FF2 where it was stuck on the hardest centering tension when flying Lockon.

 

Use either 1.3 or 1.4 either one will work and neither installs on your PC. Just run RTC and then launch Lockon and while in game or map view press F10 then F6 to lighten the tension or F7 to increase it. The only issue is that I havent been able to figure out how to remap the RTC keys so I had to remap the keys from F10 to F5 in lockon but once you do that once its no big deal.

 

Although I don't know how it will work with FFB enabled in LO but its worth a try.

 

RTC

 

EDIT: I just tried it and with "FFB = true" RTC will pretty much override that command and you'll loose the feedback and only be able to control the centering forces like me. But if you have too many issues with FFB enabled then try RTC out and see. I have to say though that after just trying FFB again in LO it seemed to work better than I remember... could be the updated VIA drivers I installed since the last time I tried it, still the damn problem of the stick having to be forced forwards or backwards after trimming ... Later on I'll see if I can deal with that. If not then no big deal centering forces feel better than springs any day.

Cozmo.

[sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]

Minimum effort, maximum satisfaction.

 

CDDS Tutorial Version 3. | Main Screen Mods.

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BBQ

BBQ

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Posted

<---Noob

 

Can someone explain precisely what is going on with the FF on these sticks? I just assummed FF was when you got hit with a weapon, it would vibrate or something--but from listening to you guys, it seems like alot more than that. What does trim have to do with it? I'm especially interested after seeing that video where the real Ka-50 pilot is constantly adjusting his trim.

 

I've got a cougar, and planned on using that setup--but now I'm beginning to wonder.

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Phantom_Mark

Phantom_Mark

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My memory serves me there is a long outstanding issue with the via chipset and MSFF devices, they released a patch - driver set I believe, but that was for Windows ME/98

 

I have had no problems with ingame tension etc........

 

The trim in LO moves the centre position of your stick just like in RL with some of the aircraft, the SU25 in particular.........you always know the trim state of your plane by where you stick handle is centrered.

 

The stick will react to being hit, stalling, landing, fully featured pretty much.

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Cosmonaut

Cosmonaut

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@ Phantom_Mark It works OK for the AFM aircraft but for the others it can be a real pain, however I've just been trying it again and it seems pretty good :) .. I'll try adjusting the trimgain and shakegain in the contactor.cfg to see if I can improve things further but right now it's working better than ever. Although I've always assumed that you trim the aircraft so you can center the stick. I mean how does trim actually work? .. Isn't it trim specific control surfaces on the wings? If the stick moves while trimming then that suggests that the main control surfaces are moving which could lead to you not having any stick/yoke movement left to pull up or push forward..wouldn't it? However I do prefer the way it works in every other flightsim and when you have FFB disabled..ie trimming to center the joystistick etc. But I'm gonna test this out more and see how it goes over the next few days.

 

 

<---Noob

 

Can someone explain precisely what is going on with the FF on these sticks? I just assummed FF was when you got hit with a weapon, it would vibrate or something--but from listening to you guys, it seems like alot more than that. What does trim have to do with it? I'm especially interested after seeing that video where the real Ka-50 pilot is constantly adjusting his trim.

 

 

It's a lot more than just a rumble when your jet is hit. It basically gives you the seat of the pants feel for the aircraft you're flying.

 

There are two types of forces that are being adjusted, one is the centering force for things like trim and speed. This means your stick will lean in the direction it's being trimmed or needs to be trimmed.. Then there's the rumble/stick shaker that lets you know you're using the cannon on the AFM aircraft :smilewink: and tells you the precise moment the aircraft is going to depart your control and when it does stall the stick shakes just like it does in most modern aircraft. I have to say that the most amazing Force Feedback experience you can have is with IL2. I'm not kidding it's the most complete flying experience you can have and with out a doubt the best use of FFB there is. From the way the stick wobbles when the gear is lowered to the way you ride the edge of the stall it is the best there is .. even if you don't like WWII combat you will get to love it with a FFB stick for sure.

Cozmo.

[sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]

Minimum effort, maximum satisfaction.

 

CDDS Tutorial Version 3. | Main Screen Mods.

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Weta43

Weta43

Posted
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Although I've always assumed that you trim the aircraft so you can center the stick. I mean how does trim actually work? ..

 

Most games have trimming center the stick with no force, but what happens in LO (neutral force position moves with trimming) is the way it actually works in (Russian at least) planes - & in the Ka-50. So - LO FFB is different to what happens in most games, but is a more accurate reflection of RL (and soon to get even better with the Ka-50 :-)

Cheers.

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zoranin

zoranin

Posted
Posted

I m new at this site,but i have question about joystick in LOFC.Now I play with Logitech Attack 3 but is not mine,I must buy new and I m thinking about Logitech 3D Pro who has force feedback option,I read on this site that FF doesnt work on flaming cliffs.I dont know is it good decision to buy this stick if I lose trim ability becuse of turning off FF in flaming cliffs setup?Maybe FF will work normaly if not what is my solution,to buy stick without FF ability??

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Cosmonaut

Cosmonaut

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FFB works fine with FC...

 

I have to say that I have been flying Lockon since it first came out and FFB has never really worked for me, which is why I have always just used the centering force, setting FFB to false. But now it's working great, in fact I can't believe how good it's working and for the first time I am experiencing forces I never even knew existed in Lockon.. e.g, stick rumbles as you approach the over G .. I haven't blacked out yet :D .

 

FFB is a must have for sure... Useful info for M$FFB2 owners; http://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=65263&postcount=4

Cozmo.

[sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]

Minimum effort, maximum satisfaction.

 

CDDS Tutorial Version 3. | Main Screen Mods.

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Roosterfeet

Roosterfeet

Posted
Posted

Brief summary of Cosmonaut's link for people searching the board:

 

Useful tips for force feedback joysticks in 1.12.

 

In our config folder:

 

1. Set force feedback to on or of by editing producer.cfg and setting ForceFeedbackEnabled to 'true' or 'false'

 

2. If force feedback works but moves the wrong axis, i.e. trim does wierd things... edit contractor. config and set SwapForceAxes = 1.

Ryzen 5 3600, Radeon RX 5600 XT

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