Lockon boring?

[GGTharos]

I agree with you from a practical/realistic assignment perspective.

 

Sadly, a player will go after whatever targets he likes, having no reason to leave anything for anyone else. Any time you put A2G weapons on fighters in LOMAC, on HL servers, it devalues the ground-pounders because the fighter will get there faster, safer, and it'll be able to defend itself as well.

 

In many cases, a low-level supersonic ingress will plain prevent some LOMAC air defenses from even working.

 

I can agree with your points except this one. It could allow missions to be designed where the dedicated air to ground planes can perform more in their intended roles leaving strike missions up to the MiG-29s.

[159th_Viper]

I'd be in there too ... we (the 504 and 44) have actually run such a mission for a very short time, and it was very successful, but it IS difficult....

 

As a matter of interest - what prevents said mission from running again on a Server dedicated to the said mission/missions of a similar nature and design?

[GGTharos]

Lack of money to run the server primarily, generally low server population, and difficulty in producing particularly varied missions :(

 

You have to use the entire length of the map to do something reasonable in essence.

[Peyoteros]

Mission editor is very weak in LOMAC, you are very limited. Once you flown the mission, second time you know exactly what is going to happen and when... If ground target is stationary he will be the next time you fly too... and so on... more flyable aircraft is needed, cos BLUE side has none A10, F15... and baba... no more. So my answer to the thread is YES, LOMAC is boring.

[Grimes]

Its been discussed before and there really is no way around it aside from a overwhelming majority of players deciding they want to take the game in a new direction. There have been great ideas coming from the community on how to change things, but they rarely get followed through on. Community events like RedFlag and Crimean Incident cannot substitute for day to day play of the game. The best thing that could happen for this game would be a built in VoIP or to join a servers ventrilo or teamspeak. Not that it would matter anyways, the majority of squads stay on their own VoIP servers while they play, regardless if they are in their own server or not and an update including that from ED isnt gonna happen. There arnt that many great places to build a mission around. The mountain range is the best place to build missions around, however I don't think the primary airbases for fighters should be Sochi v Maykop. That is just to short of a flight.

[Aeroscout]

Its been discussed before and there really is no way around it aside from a overwhelming majority of players deciding they want to take the game in a new direction. There have been great ideas coming from the community on how to change things, but they rarely get followed through on. Community events like RedFlag and Crimean Incident cannot substitute for day to day play of the game. The best thing that could happen for this game would be a built in VoIP or to join a servers ventrilo or teamspeak. Not that it would matter anyways, the majority of squads stay on their own VoIP servers while they play, regardless if they are in their own server or not and an update including that from ED isnt gonna happen. There arnt that many great places to build a mission around. The mountain range is the best place to build missions around, however I don't think the primary airbases for fighters should be Sochi v Maykop. That is just to short of a flight.

 

Mountains being the "best" is a matter of opinion. I do see the advantages of mountainous terrain for mission building, but not all air engagements occur over them. However, I think people are taking this post in the wrong direction as well. I don't want to start a discussion on how to improve online play, all I was asking for was a bit of variety. I understand the only way to make online play more cooperative is to make coms mandatory, which isn't going to happen.

 

In short, all I (and probably some others) am asking for are different maps and some variety in the weather. The old MiG-29A Mission on the 504th server was fun, and a bit different.

 

Aero out!

[RedTiger]

I may not play multiplayer LOMAC, but I'd be dishonest if I said that I didn't play other things online these days.

 

I know this is not going to happen for LOMAC (but maybe DCS might have this option?), but how would people feel about an online service that allows actual "matches" in pre-designed missions that are open ended enough to play again? You can either join as a preformed team or you can just join anonymously as a lone wolf and be auto-grouped and matched with other lone wolves against another team. Maybe you could specify if you'd prefer only other preformed teams or only improvised teams to make sure its a fair fight.

 

This is how many online game do it, so I wonder how this would work for LOMAC. It would turn "team deathmatch" into "capture the flag", if you want to use FPS terminology. Yeah, you may know the map, but the variances in teams and planes would provide the replayability. Plus, you wouldn't just be killing everything in sight, you'd actually have an objective. The tactical possibilities would be endless.

 

I've been tempted now that I've built my computer to give HL a try, albeit incognito for a while. I'd much rather fly with some organization, but I don't really want to join a squadron. I can say with experience that having a real objective that a mission is designed around, where winning and losing is a matter of team work and tactics -- not just racking up kills, cuts down a lot on the BS and can inspire people to get organized to win.

[GGTharos]

There are squadrons who'll let you fly with them even if you don't join.

[FA_Crazy-Canuck]

My 2 cents. I have come to really enjoy this game and this community. Having been, and still am, a long time IL2 pilot and FA squad member, I have always said what is lacking in the LOMAC servers is mission objectives and team goals to "win" the map and rotate to another mission/map. I have no idea how LOMAC works as it relates to missions on servers etc, but I enjoy IL2 for this reason. There are many servers that promote team goals and the drive by all on comms, and there are many on comms, to win the map.

 

Objectives and team work gives all concerned a much better experience ground targets with cover etc. This community is just as competetive as others I have flown with and I think servers would benefit by objective based and team oriented missions.

 

Like I said, my 2 cents.

[Pilotasso]

The old MiG-29A Mission on the 504th server was fun, and a bit different.

 

Yep, I miss that too. no Actives, no good radar,no awacs, no jammers. Good knife fights, all skill.

[RedTiger]

There are squadrons who'll let you fly with them even if you don't join.

 

I'm sure there are, but what I long for is the ability to play at least somewhat organized in an anonymous setting. I value my privacy and I'd like to be able to log on, play with some people in a mission that requires organization and tactics, and then log off with no obligation to ever play with those same people again.

 

Sound anti-social? Perhaps it is, but its the type of thing you can get in most online games, but not in flight sims. I think it provides the most bang for the buck.

[GGTharos]

Good luck.

There's no such thing as 'organization and tactics' with people you only bother to fly with once.

No one's asking you to give up your name or anything ;)

[Cosmonaut]

..... what I long for is the ability to play at least somewhat organized in an anonymous setting.

 

I agree with that 100%. In IL2 that's almost exactly what happens. You log on, read the simple mission brief and as soon as you take off you're part of a team effort. The same thing for Americas Army and Armed Assault. However Lockon doesn't really give you that option unless the host spends a considerable amount time in the server which just isn't practical.

 

From my experience of online gaming/simming with out automated missions where one side is declared a winner and you're receiving regular updates through out the mission, even simple updates like how many planes/ pilots are left etc, then team work is more difficult to organize for the casual participant, not impossible becasue it does happen from time to time but it's the expection rather than the rule.

[Maxum]

I'm sure there are, but what I long for is the ability to play at least somewhat organized in an anonymous setting. I value my privacy and I'd like to be able to log on, play with some people in a mission that requires organization and tactics, and then log off with no obligation to ever play with those same people again.

 

Sound anti-social? Perhaps it is, but its the type of thing you can get in most online games, but not in flight sims. I think it provides the most bang for the buck.

 

I know exactly what you are talking about. But that truly only works in FPS or an arcade type setting. I was in a squad when Air Warrior was all the rage and we then moved to Warbids....then to WWII Online. It is a very time consuming process but to be effective as a squad, you have to put your time in with that squad. Heck, if I remember right we even did a pilot exchange program so that we could better understand other friendly squads tactics. This made it easier to work together when a big event was coming up.

 

I think I am currently doomed to be a "lonewolf" but one that will escort if asked.......

[Mustang]

Yep, I miss that too. no Actives, no good radar,no awacs, no jammers. Good knife fights, all skill.

 

RAF server routinely run 29A/Su-25 only sets of missions over the western crimean areas of the map, they are pretty good :)

[RedTiger]

Good luck.

There's no such thing as 'organization and tactics' with people you only bother to fly with once.

No one's asking you to give up your name or anything ;)

 

Oh, I beg to differ. There are -plenty- of examples of online games out there that you can play with complete strangers that require organization and tactics and in -plenty- of those games complete strangers work together (without teamspeak or vent, I might add ;) ) to win.

 

Want an example? "Insert generic FPS capture the flag game here". I'm not even saying a specific example because I don't have to! That is by far, the best example. True, this isn't a flight sim, but please, LOMAC isn't exactly difficult to play. In those capture the flag games, killing someone 50 times has no bearing on winning. You have to....capture the flag! Doing that is all about tactics and teamwork. I have played plenty of these games (crap loads of them if you count all that UT/Quake/Halo I used to play) with strangers and the desire to win most of the time will cause people to work together. If someone knows the ropes, they often get to be the defacto leader and give out tips and advice.

 

True, you will find people who don't pull their own weight and even those who's only goal is to sabotage the team! But in most cases, people are making an effort to work together and win.

[GGTharos]

Oh, I beg to differ.

 

Beggars can't be choosers, and I have standards ;)

 

If you don't know what I'm telling you during a pincer, and you don't know what to tell me, and I don't know what you're going to do when you're defensive, and you don't tell me what you're doing while defensive (without taking over the channel, I might add), then you're just making a poor attempt at using tactics.

 

Granted, in LO at least, some of the best attempts at tactics fail (realistic ones at least) because of LO's quirks, but still. Standards. ;)

 

PS: No, I'm not some kind of tactical genius, nor do I claim to know how real airforces do stuff beyond a superficial amount of knowledge. But it's still a heck of a lot more than some random person jumping in and not knowing what 'bandit gimbals left for 17' means and why it's being repeated to him.

[RedTiger]

I know exactly what you are talking about. But that truly only works in FPS or an arcade type setting. I was in a squad when Air Warrior was all the rage and we then moved to Warbids....then to WWII Online. It is a very time consuming process but to be effective as a squad, you have to put your time in with that squad. Heck, if I remember right we even did a pilot exchange program so that we could better understand other friendly squads tactics. This made it easier to work together when a big event was coming up.

 

I think I am currently doomed to be a "lonewolf" but one that will escort if asked.......

 

Sorry, I don't accept that. See Cosmonaut's post about this very type of thing in IL2.

 

I'm playing a game right now that isn't a FPS. Its an MMO. That MMO has player vs. player combat for organized groups and for anonymous players. The combat isn't hard, but it is deceptively complex. You have to understand various game mechanics independent of your class, mechanics specific to your class, and mechanics of all the other classes, of which there are several. If you don't bother to have a working knowledge of this, you'll get stomped.

 

I can tell that that 90% of the time in the anonymous player vs. player groups, people are trying hard to win. They are working together, supporting each other, just like any team. When its all over, these people leave that team and join another one with new people and do it all over again.

 

 

This isn't a FPS or a flight sim, but like anything, it has some complex concepts that you have to understand to compete on a basic level. It isn't any harder or easier than a sim like LOMAC, IMO.

 

The rewards of winning are often enough to entice people to work together. A mission that is designed in such a way that mindless killing will get you no where enforces this.

[RedTiger]

Beggars can't be choosers, and I have standards ;)

 

If you don't know what I'm telling you during a pincer, and you don't know what to tell me, and I don't know what you're going to do when you're defensive, and you don't tell me what you're doing while defensive (without taking over the channel, I might add), then you're just making a poor attempt at using tactics.

 

Granted, in LO at least, some of the best attempts at tactics fail (realistic ones at least) because of LO's quirks, but still. Standards. ;)

 

Then you can play with your squad. Fair enough? ;)

 

For a group of anonymous players vs. another group of anonymous players, that type of thing isn't necessary. Yes, that will separate the men from the boys, so to speak, the squads vs. the pick-up groups, but there's no reason why it can't be set up to pit squads vs. squads and pick up groups vs. pickup groups. :) See, everyone gets to be happy! :D

[GGTharos]

If your argument is simply that cooperation overcomes the lonewolf, then I agree.

[RedTiger]

If your argument is simply that cooperation overcomes the lonewolf, then I agree.

 

That is exactly my argument, as well as that it is possible for a bunch of strangers to cooperate. And to foster that cooperation, you need to have missions built with objectives and win conditions.

 

I'm basically arguing here for something that will never happen, I know. These types of things are what you find in main-stream PC and even console games. Can you imagine the effort it would take ED to make a sim like Black Shark and then also provide a 24-hour automated server for matches? Not going to happen.

 

Also, I want to say that its not all about remaining anonymous, its also about ease of use, work, and obligation. Right now, LOMAC multiplayer beyond un-organized HL isn't very easy to get into and requires obligation and work on the part of the player. Squadrons are basically the gate keepers for a dynamic, enjoyable online experience. LOMAC is a blank template that requires YOU, the community to provide everything.

 

Someone can argue that their squadron is easy going and I don't have to show up every night, but its human nature for them to mentally take attendance and note that I'm not showing up as often as they'd like me to. And if it becomes apparant that I feel no obligation to the squadron, I'm afraid that isn't going to "fly" for very long.

[GGTharos]

The way the latter works, rather, if you don't put in the time to get 'up to standard', whatever that may be, you won't be effective in flying with them, you'll feel left out, and you'll leave; even if they always welcome you.

And yes, you're right, there's -some- amount of time you have to put in to get it all going, but it's not half as bad as you seem to think it is. Is say, ten hours training time too much training time? Fifteen hours?

[Pilotasso]

My conection to that server is pretty bad. Havent flown it it for ages now.

[RedTiger]

The way the latter works, rather, if you don't put in the time to get 'up to standard', whatever that may be, you won't be effective in flying with them, you'll feel left out, and you'll leave; even if they always welcome you.

And yes, you're right, there's -some- amount of time you have to put in to get it all going, but it's not half as bad as you seem to think it is. Is say, ten hours training time too much training time? Fifteen hours?

 

Its not the training, or the part to get it all going, rather its the on-going obligation. I would expect that a squadron would have some sort of orientation or training. I'm struggling here, because I'm trying really hard to not seem like a lazy, anti-social prick in a community full of people who are anything but anti-social or lazy. However, perhaps thats exactly what I am. :D I'm not as interested in the socializing part as much as I just want to play against an opponent who is human in a setting that takes a modicum of cooperation to win. And thats pretty much how its always been for me. I never enjoyed being in FPS clans or MMO guilds and such, but I did like pitting myself against another human. I really did enjoy socializing with people and working with them to the point that I knew that I had no obligations to them.

 

I have yet to see anything like that coming down the pipe in a flight sim. So until then, flight sims will most likely continue to be a solo pursuit for me. I'm just glad developers are seeing the value of having something for the single player in the form of campaigns & mission editors beyond what LOMAC has to offer.

[GGTharos]

Its not the training, or the part to get it all going, rather its the on-going obligation. I would expect that a squadron would have some sort of orientation or training. I'm struggling here, because I'm trying really hard to not seem like a lazy, anti-social prick in a community full of people who are anything but anti-social or lazy. However, perhaps thats exactly what I am. :D

 

Ha :D Well, who's to say your reasons are worse than anyone else's for whatever you do :D

 

However, like most people, I think you need to let go of this fear of commitment and just try things out. Some squadrons have strict regimens, some don't ... some will teach you stuff, some won't. I'd be worried more about this hit-and-miss thing.

 

I'm not as interested in the socializing part as much as I just want to play against an opponent who is human in a setting that takes a modicum of cooperation to win. And thats pretty much how its always been for me. I never enjoyed being in FPS clans or MMO guilds and such, but I did like pitting myself against another human. I really did enjoy socializing with people and working with them to the point that I knew that I had no obligations to them.

I call this a mental block :D

No one's going to make you come to a TS server and force you to be there x times a week. Some might try, but I think you can just ask for 'attendance requirements' and you should be able to judge if you want to deal with this or not.

 

I have yet to see anything like that coming down the pipe in a flight sim. So until then, flight sims will most likely continue to be a solo pursuit for me. I'm just glad developers are seeing the value of having something for the single player in the form of campaigns & mission editors beyond what LOMAC has to offer.

ED is indeed going in a new direction, which should enhance both multi-play and single play.