Force feedback vs spring loaded cams ?

[karel88l]

I am planning full length control stick,I could go with spring loaded cams gimbal,which is quite easy to get or go with force feedback which I should probably built by myself which would be hard for me,since I do not understand electronics,but there is guy who build one or I could hack old MS FFB2.

 

Is force feedback worth over spring loaded cam gimbal for games like IL2 or Rise of flight ? Any advantages/disadvantages for both solutions ?

[ricktoberfest]

I am planning full length control stick,I could go with spring loaded cams gimbal,which is quite easy to get or go with force feedback which I should probably built by myself which would be hard for me,since I do not understand electronics,but there is guy who build one or I could hack old MS FFB2.

 

Is force feedback worth over spring loaded cam gimbal for games like IL2 or Rise of flight ? Any advantages/disadvantages for both solutions ?

 

Force feedback is fun, but unless you’ve got a good setup and fly mainly helos then I don’t think it’s worth it. Not in DCS at least.

 

I have an old Logitech force 3D extreme that I pull out every once in awhile but the stick isn’t comfortable and doesn’t have many buttons so after a day or 2 it goes back in the box for another year.

 

Not sure about flying the ww2 birds with it as I haven’t tried that yet.

[erniedaoage]

If you look for immersion get a forcefeedback stick it's harder to be precise with it because the stick moves on its own. If you ever tried a racing simulation with forcefeedback wheel imagine playing the same game without it. It really is the same for flight sims. Just a couple of examples. If you fly a helicopter and you trim your stick it will physically stay there. Same goes for fixed wing modules, if i trim my stick it moves with the ingame stick and stays at position. Another one is that you can feel it in the stick if you loose a control surface in ww2 warbirds or feel the stick deflection limiter in the f5. It's also quite immersive if you get shot up in a warbird and everything starts to shake in the cockpit and also your stick rattles.

[agrasyuk]

FFB is absolutely worth it for rise of flight - it gives a very good feeling just how much farther can you push your plane before stalling. For a modern fly-by-wire plane FFB is not so much critical.

[Phantom_Mark]

 

Force feedback is fun, but unless you’ve got a good setup and fly mainly helos then I don’t think it’s worth it. Not in DCS at least.

 

I have an old Logitech force 3D extreme that I pull out every once in awhile but the stick isn’t comfortable and doesn’t have many buttons so after a day or 2 it goes back in the box for another year.

 

Not sure about flying the ww2 birds with it as I haven’t tried that yet.

 

You'd change your mind had you tried with a decent stick instead of a POS........Logi 3d is absolute junk compared to the MSFFB2. I have an un-used Warthog setup here since new, and choose to fly with a highly modified MSFFB2 instead, and just bought another for spares in case it breaks (it is 20yrs old after all)......

 

The only people I see say negative things about FFB are the ones who don't obviously know how to set it up properly, or using inferior equipment, I absolutely do not mean this as a flame towards you btw Rick, I just have a lot of hate for that Logitech 3d stick, it is horrible.

[Phantom_Mark]

FFB is absolutely worth it for rise of flight - it gives a very good feeling just how much farther can you push your plane before stalling. For a modern fly-by-wire plane FFB is not so much critical.

 

Absolutely this......and the MB339 mod, you can feel the air pressure increase over the control surfaces as your speed increases for take off, beautifully implemented.....

[streakeagle]

If the aircraft you are simulating have conventional control systems, i.e. direct link between control surfaces and the control stick, force feedback is the only way to get anything resembling real world forces. However, the limitations on the realism of the signals being generated by the flight sims and the ability to accurately simulate both the magnitude and response time of forces even if the signals being sent were 100% correct mean it will never be totally realistic. Springs provide simple fixed feedback telling you how far you are away from the center position, which is useful but generally not realistic at all. So given the choice between something that tries to model reality, even if limitations make it far less than 100% correct or a simple system that is almost always incorrect, force feedback should be the way to go. Accurate or not, force feedback is far more immersive.

 

Having said that, I don't have force feedback on my stick. I value the quality of the stick's ability to accurately report its position over its ability to resist motion or vibrate. If VKB or Virpil or even Thrustmaster made a high precision stick with a reliable force feedback system that worked well with DCS World, I would buy it in a heartbeat. But that doesn't exist. So, I have settled for the vibrating seat pad. Even more so than the stick, the feedback from the vibrating pad cannot provide very realistic forces. However, like the force feedback sticks, the information being provided is far more useful and realistic than fixed springs on the the stick. The immersion level from using a vibrating pad is extremely high for me. I can feel bumps on the runway, gunfire, and most importantly, buffeting, which ties in with stick force feedback. The vibration may rarely if ever match realistic frequencies and magnitudes, yet still provides information I would get even from aircraft with fly-by-wire sticks that have zero force feedback in real life.

 

I would still love to have as accurate a force feedback stick as possible, especially for WW1 and WW2 aircaft, but the vibrating seat pad has been a very cost effective way of getting some of that same immersion.

[erniedaoage]

 

No it doesn't......utter tosh, unless you have it setup incorrectly it does exactly as it should do.......the only people I see say negative things about FFB are the ones who don't obviously know how to set it up properly, or using inferior equipment.

 

Sorry but english is not my first language but i haven't said anything negative about it except that spring loaded gimbals are more precise because the force doesn't change.

[Phantom_Mark]

 

Sorry but english is not my first language but i haven't said anything negative about it except that spring loaded gimbals are more precise because the force doesn't change.

 

Fat fingers mixing up my quotes sorry.

 

[ricktoberfest]

 

You'd change your mind had you tried with a decent stick instead of a POS........Logi 3d is absolute junk compared to the MSFFB2. I have an un-used Warthog setup here since new, and choose to fly with a highly modified MSFFB2 instead, and just bought another for spares in case it breaks (it is 20yrs old after all)......

 

The only people I see say negative things about FFB are the ones who don't obviously know how to set it up properly, or using inferior equipment, I absolutely do not mean this as a flame towards you btw Rick, I just have a lot of hate for that Logitech 3d stick, it is horrible.

 

That second paragraph is a little harsh, but if you read what I said and what the original poster said you’d see that I don’t disagree that it should be great. (It’s ok I can handle it, I’m a big boy) But currently unless you can modify an old stick (which the OP said was beyond him), or in some way have a really good setup, then force feedback in DCS isn’t worth it. I’d like to change my mind someday, and your right that the Logitech extreme is a crappy stick, but there aren’t a whole lot of choices for those who don’t want to create their own modded stick or spend a ton of money to have someone else do it.

 

My negatively wasnt about force feedback itself, it was about the current state of joysticks that offer it and the cost and modding needed to get it to work

 

 

 

[Phantom_Mark]

 

That second paragraph is a little harsh, but if you read what I said and what the original poster said you’d see that I don’t disagree that it should be great. (It’s ok I can handle it, I’m a big boy) But currently unless you can modify an old stick (which the OP said was beyond him), or in some way have a really good setup, then force feedback in DCS isn’t worth it. I’d like to change my mind someday, and your right that the Logitech extreme is a crappy stick, but there aren’t a whole lot of choices for those who don’t want to create their own modded stick or spend a ton of money to have someone else do it.

 

My negatively wasnt about force feedback itself, it was about the current state of joysticks that offer it and the cost and modding needed to get it to work

 

 

 

Fair points, a standard MSFFB2 is a great stick tho, I'd still prefer to use that over my Warthog tbh, with the Handle conversion I made on it as well I now have the best of both worlds thankfully. Sorry I find it hard to contain myself re: the Logitech after trying a 3d and a 940.....such rubbish bits of kit.

[Roller25]

 

Fair points, a standard MSFFB2 is a great stick tho, I'd still prefer to use that over my Warthog tbh, with the Handle conversion I made on it as well I now have the best of both worlds thankfully. Sorry I find it hard to contain myself re: the Logitech after trying a 3d and a 940.....such rubbish bits of kit.

 

Do you have your warthog grip mounted on your MSFFB2? Could you share details?

[Phantom_Mark]

 

Do you have your warthog grip mounted on your MSFFB2? Could you share details?

 

Its a CH Fighterstick Pro handle, which is 99% the same as the Warthog handle.....only one button missing the lower pinky lever, oh, and it doesn't have a 2 stage trigger sadly......a great compromise tho, managed to retain the twist rudder as well.