Too high for missile to intercept?

[nscode]

And SPO manual actually calls it SAM launch tone if I remamber correctly :)

[GGTharos]

That's quite possible - a lot of SAMs use a separate TR to attack, so once that starts tracking you, you can be pretty sure a missile's either on the way or will be on the way shortly.

[Dunkan Aidaho]

Yes, he should get a lock tone. He shouldn't get a *launch* tone, unless lock=launch. ;)

 

There's not change in radar waveform for most modern radars to differenciate lock/track from launch. This is the only part of your explanation that I view differently from you.

Which modern tandem radar + SARH you keep in mind? I heared some rumors that R-33 + Zaslon ("Заслон") has such capabilities, but proofs wasn't shown.

 

In such situations (HOJ launch) in LockOn we should get launch warning from any kind of SARH missiles represented in the game right after launch despite of distance and burn through jam. Just because all of them need specific waveform (thnx for the term:)). Do you agree with that?

[GGTharos]

F-15C + AIM-7, possibly Su-27/MiG-29 + R-27 ... anything that no longer requires a change in PRF or PD to CW waveform to guide. If the radar function doesn't change, how's the RWR going to tell the difference between track and missile guidance, since they are the same? ;)

 

I agree with you that in a lot (but not all) cases, HoJ launch should simply be consistent normal launch (ie. either both give warning, or both do not). However in LO, for example, there was an attempt to model F-15 HoJ as a 'silent' passive HoJ mode where the radar just listens for the jamming signal instead of actively trying to provoke the jammer.

 

The whole ECM/ECCM thing in LO isn't terribly realistic after all :)

[Rhino4]

Stay on topic, eh? :) Don't want this turning into the data-link-et thread...

 

@ Redtiger: Did you get a chance to retest? If so, could you post a track or acmi of it somewhere?

[nscode]

F-15C + AIM-7, possibly Su-27/MiG-29 + R-27 ... anything that no longer requires a change in PRF or PD to CW waveform to guide. If the radar function doesn't change, how's the RWR going to tell the difference between track and missile guidance, since they are the same? ;)

 

Datalink?

[GGTharos]

I'm not entirely convinced that an RWR can pick up a datalink or differenciate it from the existing radar signal.

Case in point, even USAF places would go defensive right away when spiked by a MiG-29 for example.

[cool_t]

@Rhino4

 

 

@cool_t

 

I didn't really mean this to be a request for assistance on tactics. All I'm interested in is the missile behavior. These scenarios I'm describing are not missions and they are not realistic, its a 1v1 Su-27 vs. excellent AI F-15. I need to try a MiG-29, F-16 or some other plane that I can deny jamming capability in the mission editor.

 

In all honesty you need to come out alive after HOJ or radar intercept. This realy is the only way you can understand what is happining or what did not happen while your in the jet.

 

One can not just shoot on a HOJ or a bandit and just close there eyes. Where your jet is in comparison to the bandit a launch point is just as essential as "Missile behavior" They act diferently according to altitude and attitude.

 

You need to complete an engagement to have the cognative reasoning of what missiles have done in past engagements or what works and what might work and what does work.

 

The LOMAC missiles on paper are very different than how they perform in combat.

 

You need to understand why the missile is "LOFTING" in HOJ, actualy you get way more range in HOJ intercept (The missile is not folowing evey move your bandit is making)

[GGTharos]

I thought 'the missile goes pure pursuit in HoJ' pretty much explains it to just about anyone. There's nothing special about 'lofting' as compared to the STT shot in LOMAC.

[RedTiger]

In all honesty you need to come out alive after HOJ or radar intercept. This realy is the only way you can understand what is happining or what did not happen while your in the jet.

 

One can not just shoot on a HOJ or a bandit and just close there eyes. Where your jet is in comparison to the bandit a launch point is just as essential as "Missile behavior" They act diferently according to altitude and attitude.

 

You need to complete an engagement to have the cognative reasoning of what missiles have done in past engagements or what works and what might work and what does work.

 

The LOMAC missiles on paper are very different than how they perform in combat.

 

You need to understand why the missile is "LOFTING" in HOJ, actualy you get way more range in HOJ intercept (The missile is not folowing evey move your bandit is making)

 

Yes, I am aware of all this thank you. I am not looking for tactics, nor am I interested in understanding of how missiles will work for the sake of killing bandits in this case, honestly. I'm interested in missile behavior in combat flight sims for the sake of being interested in missile behavior. :)

 

I did some more tests, this time using recorded tracks along with ACMIs. I used a stop watch to get the exact moment when burn through occurs. After watching missile and bandit behavior, I am about 90% sure GG was correct. Those times in the past where I saw the missile turn down and chase could probably be due to HOJ. I am unable to safely (as in without wasting missiles at long range and getting killed :D ) replicate the behavior.

 

Also, launching from an extreme range where the bandit is jamming them all is kinda pointless. Strange missile behavior when launched at extreme, low PK range doesn't really surprise me.

 

At the exact moment of burn through, the missile does its sharp turn to intercept the bandit. I also noticed that the reason the missile had to do this sharp turn was because the AI starts going defensive at the same moment: burn through. I don't know if this is the AI's notorious super situational awareness or maybe they don't get a launch tone until they shut off ECM, which seems to happen to me sometimes. This behavior favors the HOJ explanation because in the other cases, the bandit did zero defensive maneuvers.

 

The only reason I'm not totally convinced is because I couldn't replicate what I saw before! :mad:

 

Here one of the more conclusive ACMI files:

 

http://rapidshare.com/files/119678498/Tacview-20080602-192726.txt_BURN_THROUGH_447.acmi.html

 

Burn through occurs around 4:47 to 4:49. No fancy defensive stuff from me, just trying to get low as quick as possible so I can hold the lock long enough to see what the missile does. If anyone would like the track, let me know.

[RvEYoda]

When I spoke to a mig29 pilot

he told me that Alamo radar missiles

generally should not give away a launch

warning to the opponents warning system.

I doubt this however, because he also

said he saw no reason why Alamo-T shouldn't

have datalink (since the series in general does have it).

[Pilotasso]

does his airforce actualy use it?

[GGTharos]

The MiG-29 manual pretty much states that the datalink signal isn't generated for the T/ET, IIRC.

[Excelsior]

Which manual is this? Is it the downgraded export version that has been doing the rounds on the internet or has there been a domestic MiG-29 A or C manual found?

[GGTharos]

I'm pretty sure it's the export, and I don't think that makes a difference ;) The radar doesn't generate a DLink signal for something that's wired in through the heat-seeker hook ups, AFAIK.

[Pilotasso]

IR heads do not do any ranging. If there was any Datalink it would probably only tell direction of target. Then anything that glows there would be locked.

[GGTharos]

I don't think radar ones do any ranging either, though they can at least get closure (IIRC, the equipment for actually computing range is difficult to fit within a missile)

[HubMan]

When I spoke to a mig29 pilot

he told me that Alamo radar missiles

generally should not give away a launch

warning to the opponents warning system.

I doubt this however, because he also

said he saw no reason why Alamo-T shouldn't

have datalink (since the series in general does have it).

There should be no launch warning but a very nice "lock" alert for a R-27R :) Because if the monopulse radar of the aircraft can track a target, it should be enough to guide a Fox 1 :)

 

Anyways, pilots will always have a nasty way to play with the words and saying things they do not say :D

 

Hub.

 

*EDIT* : I took the time to read the previous posts, sorry to state the obvious :)

[Pilotasso]

I don't think radar ones do any ranging either, though they can at least get closure (IIRC, the equipment for actually computing range is difficult to fit within a missile)

 

Yes...havent thought of that, but I think the missile might still easely calculate distance to target by closure rate given by dopler and initial target info at launch. An IR missile cant do this.

[GGTharos]

Yes, you're correct; because of the closure being available, the missile has 'other means' of computing distance, at least approximately :D

 

In a way, a heater could do the same, but even more approximate just by having a time-to-impact timer.

 

Yes...havent thought of that, but I think the missile might still easely calculate distance to target by closure rate given by dopler and initial target info at launch. An IR missile cant do this.

[RedTiger]

Wow, we've come full circle. That other thread started off about R-27T data link and the got side tracked to number superiority. This one started off about LOMAC missile behavior and got side tracked back to R-27T data link! :)

[GGTharos]

Yeah. Ain't we awesome? :D

[Pilotasso]

"We have now come to a full circle grasshoper" :D

[cool_t]

Anyways, pilots will always have a nasty way to play with the words and saying things they do not say :D

 

Hub.

 

obvious :)

 

ahhhhemmm, cough, cough, :smilewink: