Numerical Advantage (OT moved out of the R-27ET thread)

[Frostie]

Nobody's denying that NATO wouldn't make use of their airpower. However, to say that Serbian MiGs faced 80 to 4 odds is equally absurd, if not more so.

80 to 4.

Who said this, I certainly never made any such absurd comment.

Your falsely under the impression that these engagements which happened within 10 miles are the only aircraft within the BVR vicinity, im sorry but your well off track.

[X-man]

Not hard at all to be aggressive - just blast whatever they can in the sky. It's a target rich environment - it may be hard to stay alive, but it shouldn't be too hard to be aggressive. I fail to see your point.

Oh, so the Serbian pilots didnt care for their own lifes, they just pressed to their own death? It might work in LOMAC, but I think RL pilots care abit more for their own lifes...

[Frostie]

Not hard at all to be aggressive - just blast whatever they can in the sky. It's a target rich environment - it may be hard to stay alive, but it shouldn't be too hard to be aggressive. I fail to see your point.

Gung-ho Rambo tactics of the brain dead non-US countries , thats so true.:doh:

[Frostie]

The MiGs were never too badly out-numbered by enemy CAPs - 2 vs 1 at worst. In fact, in such a situation, the MiG would have the benefit of being able to go weapons free on whatever's flying, while the F-15Cs would have to make sure they don't shoot a friendly by mistake.

Yeah weapons free on anything, chasing NATO planes is easy their such a dis-organised bunch:bounce:, Kamikaze pilots were the japs in WW2.

[GGTharos]

I'm not aware of such engagements. A2A with F-15E's is purely defensive; those aircraft are -heavy- with A2G ordnance and they would only engage an enemy aircraft if it somehow got past the fighter sweep/CAP, and that's only if they didn't consider turning away first.

 

Most MiG-29A engagemetns in gulf war were against F-15C's ... anyway, the point here (at least for me) isn't whether it was all fair or not. The point is, is there an indication of how various technologies worked, and yes, there is. There's indications from radio calls, pilot interviews, etc.

 

I don't particularly care whether it was 100 v 5 or 5 v 100, it makes no difference to me; all I want to know is how many missiles were launched in head-to-head enoucnters, how many missed, and if possible, why ;)

 

Even though they might not fly same tasks as F-15C, they still can cause great damage in the A2A arena. F.e. In the gulf war, F-15Es had engagements with MiG-29s. Im not sure if they got any kills though, but they sure wasnt loosing the fights. Also, F-15Es has flown A2A roles in rare cases. Not sure about AF though... :)

 

Ofcourse NATO Pilots took the Serbs seriosly. To not do that would have been a stupid mistake, but to say that Serbs were fighting on equal level or had any chance in winning the A2A is crazy.

[X-man]

Yeah, my reply was not directed at you, only the F-15E A2A stuff :)

[GGTharos]

Ah I understand - BTW if you have sources forthe F-15E engagements I'd be interested to read them - I usually don't follow up on them since their meain thing is A2G. :D

 

I know some of those were lost to SAMs, sometimes due to inadequate ECM coverage.

[X-man]

Read here: http://www.f-15estrikeeagle.com/articles/story_airforce/airforce.htm

[D-Scythe]

Oh, so the Serbian pilots didnt care for their own lifes, they just pressed to their own death? It might work in LOMAC, but I think RL pilots care abit more for their own lifes...

 

Stop twisting my words. I said being out-numbered allows a pilot to be more aggressive, not suicidal.

 

But sure, anything to prove your point.

[X-man]

The way I see it, everyone is twisting everyones words (you included)...:P

[Vekkinho]

D-Schyte, when U're saying:

 

The MiGs were never too badly out-numbered by enemy CAPs - 2 vs 1 at worst.

 

Why do think that only CAP flights posed a threat to Serbian Fulcrums?!

 

What about Dutch F-16 flight egressing from a Strike on Valjevo when they heard AWACs information of single Fulcrum in pursuit! They were already over Tuzla, U turned and shot AMRAAM salvos towards Fulcrum that was near Serbian/Bosnian border or some 30 miles behind. Those Falcons weren't CAP and both AMRAAMs made a hit, first one hit the cockpit and probably killed the pilot instantly, second one just finishing the job of desintegrating the entire fuselage. Pilot never tried to evade any of the missiles, according to a GCI radio guy who was navigating Fulcrum, pilot experienced AC/DC generator failure shortly after TO from Batajnica leaving only battery power available for fundamental onboard systems i.e. shutting down Radar, SPO, HUD, MFD and EOS so pilot didn't even know of incoming missiles!

 

Now this circumstances mean suicidal pilot not aggressive, doesn't it?!

 

Some suggest that only first AMRAAM made a hit, second missile was launched from Serbian SA-6 as a fratricide!

 

This MiG kill happened during daylight and was shot on tape from ground, you can watch entire documentary in 3 parts:

Part 1:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YqSQduWLft4

 

Part 2:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Gv5W7q8VA8

 

Part 3:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=90NP_EGn4uM

[D-Scythe]

D-Schyte, when U're saying:

 

The MiGs were never too badly out-numbered by enemy CAPs - 2 vs 1 at worst.

 

Why do think that only CAP flights posed a threat to Serbian Fulcrums?!

 

What about Dutch F-16 flight egressing from a Strike on Valjevo when they heard AWACs information of single Fulcrum in pursuit! They were already over Tuzla, U turned and shot AMRAAM salvos towards Fulcrum that was near Serbian/Bosnian border or some 30 miles behind. Those Falcons weren't CAP and both AMRAAMs made a hit, first one hit the cockpit and probably killed the pilot instantly, second one just finishing the job of desintegrating the entire fuselage. Pilot never tried to evade any of the missiles, according to a GCI radio guy who was navigating Fulcrum, pilot experienced AC/DC generator failure shortly after TO from Batajnica leaving only battery power available for fundamental onboard systems i.e. shutting down Radar, SPO, HUD, MFD and EOS so pilot didn't even know of incoming missiles!

 

Now this circumstances mean suicidal pilot not aggressive, doesn't it?!

 

Some suggest that only first AMRAAM made a hit, second missile was launched from Serbian SA-6 as a fratricide!

 

This MiG kill happened during daylight and was shot on tape from ground, you can watch entire documentary in 3 parts:

Part 1:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YqSQduWLft4

 

Part 2:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Gv5W7q8VA8

 

Part 3:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=90NP_EGn4uM

 

Actually, those Dutch F-16AMs were on CAP.

[Vekkinho]

OK D-Schyte than please accept my apologies!

 

I was informed they were part of Strike package!

[4c Hajduk Veljko]

The way I see it, everyone is twisting everyones words (you included)...:P

That’s why I prefer to talk about facts not about the truth.

[4c Hajduk Veljko]

There are 26 F-15Cs - 20 stationed at Cervia AB, Aviano. If you're gonna use your OWN data to support your conclusions, please do NOT try to skew it in your favor, ok? Six of those F-15Cs are stationed at RAF Lakenheath - doubtful that they'll be doing too much intruding into Serbia.

You are doubtful?

 

F-15Es do NOT count as F-15Cs - nice try though. Points for effort.

So, F-15E’s can not carry AA missiles, right? I don’t need any points from you either. Where is my ignore list again …

[EvilBivol-1]

:police:

 

Sensitive subject alert!

 

Everyone play nice!

[Weta43]

I think HV was being sarcastic (or ironic, stating one thing, but meaning another, the point being that even if they're not F-15C, they still pose an A2A threat & carry AMRAAMs ...)

_________________________________________________________________

 

 

Long past in the thread, and not getting towards drifting OT, but someone asked me why I said it was 4 AIM 120's launched of which 3 missed - because of this :

 

Shower relayed the information stating the MiG-29 posed a serious threat. One minute later, after ensuring a clear field of fire and a positive identification, he launched two AIM-120C Advanced Medium Range Air-to-Air Missiles. Missing with his first shots, he pressed that attack well within range of the MiG-29's own missile line of fire.

 

He hit with the next launch (doesn't say what was launched), & missed with the one after that (again - doesn't say what was launched) - it was my assumption that as he could have been carrying up to 8 AMRAAM, & given the choice he'd use what is supposedly the most lethal weapon he had for each launch & would follow up with more of the same..

[Rhen]

No, "Dozer" (Shower) was at 37,000ft when he picked up a contact 35NM out, taking off from Batijinica. Interestingly enough, although Dozer was part of a 4-ship, he set up a counterrotating CAP so that an element was always pointing towards the threat axis. this meant that when he left the CAP to prosecute, he was in an element (2-ship). Also, his prime (the main radio) was jamming itself, so his radio calls were garbled.

 

Anyway, the contact was going less than 200Kts and was at 1,500ft. Doser locks the bandit up at DR at which time the bandit's going 400kts and is at about 10,000ft. The bandit's coming towards Dozer's element, he EIDs hostile and makes a radio call "Hostile, hostile, Fox3," which nobody heard. This was at 14NM. Dozer watches the missile and it guides and when the slammer went active, he fires a sparrow. Shortly after this as Dozer is descending out of altitude, the MiG goes to the beam, for whatever reason, like the slammer exploding near him or the tracking lock. So, the bandit's maneuvering and the sparrow misses. Now Dozer's looking down at the bandit and he's inside 6NM when he fires a slammer. They've got about 10,000ft of altitude separation, the slammer comes off the rail and goes straight down after the bandit. The bandit comes out of the beam and breaks into Dozer. They're looking at each other beak-to-beak, when the slammer hits the MiG. Dozer watches the fireball doesnt see the pilot eject, but heard later that the MiG pilot survived, for which he's said he's glad.

 

I must emphasize this: Dozer's sentiment about shooting down the aircraft & not the Man/Woman flying the jet is shared by the vast majority of us in the fighter pilot community. We want to shoot the mount, not the rider. We know, just like other REAL Fighter Pilots, that there's wives/husbands and kids involved when we do battle. Our aim is not to kill, but to best the driver and kill the mount. It may sound naiive but that's what many of us feel.

 

Another thing: All you people who are idiotic enough to think that we're not experiencing some amount of fear when we enter battle, even with a foe who's not equipped with the best equipment, are kidding yourselves. How about you enter a large dark room with a Glock and flashlight & go up against someone with a single-shot .22. Tell me you won't experience some level of excitement and trepidation.

 

So, to recap:

 

2v1 engagement, but more like a 1v1 with radio issues going on.

Slammer Pk = 50% from this engagement - 2 fired, 1 miss, 1 hit.

Sparrow Pk = 0% - 1 fired, 1 miss

 

I've been watching this debate for a while, and it just confirms things. Sad really.

[Weta43]

So the original article was wrong both in the number & type of missiles fired ? Because it definately says he fired 2 x Amraam first volley, both missing, and that in total he fired 4 missiles for 2 kills...

 

I'm surprised, the original article is credited to "Staff Sgt. Ed Scott, Air Warfare Center Public Affairs" as a press release (Nellis hero receives Distinguished Flying Cross- Air Force Air Combat Command News Service Feb 29, 2000) & I'd have thought he'd have made sure he got his facts right...

[D-Scythe]

So the original article was wrong both in the number & type of missiles fired ? Because it definately says he fired 2 x Amraam first volley, both missing, and that in total he fired 4 missiles for 2 kills...

 

No, it said that he fired 4 missiles for 1 kill. Rhen didn't go into Showers' second engagement - but in terms of the first engagement, the number of missiles match up, just not the missile type.

 

So, to recap:

 

2v1 engagement, but more like a 1v1 with radio issues going on.

Slammer Pk = 50% from this engagement - 2 fired, 1 miss, 1 hit.

Sparrow Pk = 0% - 1 fired, 1 miss

 

I've been watching this debate for a while, and it just confirms things. Sad really.

 

False. <deleted by mod>

[X-man]

Another thing: All you people who are idiotic enough to think that we're not experiencing some amount of fear when we enter battle, even with a foe who's not equipped with the best equipment, are kidding yourselves. How about you enter a large dark room with a Glock and flashlight & go up against someone with a single-shot .22. Tell me you won't experience some level of excitement and trepidation.

I dont think anyone implied that US pilots didnt have any feeling and fear, just the advatages the US had in both numbers and technologies.

 

If Ive understood it correctly, this particular fight was a 2vs1 (with some radio problems), and with a Second element beeing ready in to engage in the 'backround'. So if thing got really nasty, they would most likely have pressed the bandit. But there wasnt any reason since Dozer put the bandit defensive and pressed til the bandit was downed.

 

Rhen, how far behind was the second element of his flight? And how close must they be for it to be called a 4vs1 instead of a 2vs1?

False. <deleted by mod>

...

[Kuky]

What GG said. Those 100 F-15s would not be in the air all at the same time, and those that are flying would be split across the entire theatre of battle for Escort, MiGCAP and fighter sweep duties.

 

Or did you really think air battles are fought when both sides deploy their entire fleet of their best fighters and duke it in the sky over the course of one day.

 

USAF General: "Hey, I'll send all 100 of my F-15s 40 miles South of Belgrade, I'll see ya there bud!"

Serb Air Force General: "Great, I'll send all 20 of my MiGs there too. Loser buys the next round!"

 

Sorry to burst your bubble Kuky with a little sprinkle of reality...

 

This is a bit late reply since I haven't been paying attention to this post, but I'd like to burst your bubble of reality a bit too...

 

 

If you look at how wide the area of Serbia is around Belgrade, it's bit over 120km, widest area is maybe 200km. This is few minutes flight only in supersonic jet. What do you think how dense say only 10x aircraft would be in this area? How quickly could pairs of US fighter engage some single mig taking off and how far another pair would be?

 

My point is, Former Yugoslavia was a small country in geographical area, Serbia is even smaller. Having on station only 2-3 pairs of fighters at any given time is still more then what Serbian airforce could cramble at once... talking about numerical advantage...also I never said there are or were 100 US aircraft in air at once, you just blew some number out of your head, what I was pointing out your completelywrong statement how 100 vs 20 is not numerical advantage. Sure no one would send 100 fighters at once in air against country that can sent total of 20 aircraft... same principle applies to defender... do you think they would be that stupid to send all they have all at once... I think not. What I do think and this is the reality, US did have good number advantage at any given time over Serbian air force.

[Groove]

If you want to discuss this, let the personal attacks out of it. Next one will get a warning plus thread will be closed. Are we in the kindergarden here?

 

First watch your attitude, than post.

[Pilotasso]

NATO probably did have 100 planes in the air at once...spreaded in a much wider area than the conflict zone itself. Bombers, AWACS, tankers, EW, Recon, etc, they also counted to the total of planes mobilized and they all fought the war on their own way.

 

Yugo airforce could not match the same mission rate even though the numerical disavantage over their heads wanst that great at anyone time. There were always planes arriving when others were leaving. There were always NATO aircraft wayting for Yugos to take off. You know the drill: "weels up, flaps up, blown up!"

 

Thats how things are. On the other hand, however, and regardless of this, the mig has had other oportunitites over the gulf israel, and Eritrea where it didnt fare any better under much more favourable conditions.

 

The conflict being discussed here is not the best example and you all will always fall into academic discussions that will never agree on.

[D-Scythe]

If you want to discuss this, let the personal attacks out of it. Next one will get a warning plus thread will be closed. Are we in the kindergarden here?

 

First watch your attitude, than post.

 

I apologize. I meant it to be funny. Well, I thought the part about F-15E crews beating each other would've been hilarious, but guess not. I didn't make any personal attacks though.