Chaff and Flares

[GGTharos]

The NAVY uses the D-56/63 dispensers with the AN/ALE-47, each capable of firing 30 charges. A single sequences can only handle two dispensers.

 

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/library/policy/navy/ntsp/ale-47-p_v2_2002.pdf

 

Look at page I-4, section 3 for details on which aircraft implement this system.

Page I-5 lists operational usage modes... ;)

Edited June 23, 2008 by GGTharos

[mvsgas]

you guys notice that the cartridges in the pylon are only for Chaff, at least is said so on the pylon. I wander why and if all pylon mounted dispensers are the same?

[GGTharos]

I believe this is a safety measure (you're shooting the darned things off right over your missiles or bombs). Also note that the dispenser formats are different: The chaff dispensers are 25x25mm, the flare 25x50

[mvsgas]

I never realize how much info is in the net about this subject. Here is a photo of the dispensers and different size cartridges.

http://209.85.171.104/translate_c?hl=en&sl=ja&tl=en&u=http://www.geocities.jp/aobamil/shasin/ALE47J/ALE47J.html

 

Edited

Chizh, I hope this is helping in some way, at least I know what GG is doing must be helping. :D I hope I'm not to annoying. Ok stay on topic chaff and flares. ok :D

Edited June 23, 2008 by mvsgas

[NotiA10]

A 10A has got a potential to hold 480 chaffs or 480 flares in total according to my knowledge - under normal operating circumstances there should be no need to have chaffs on the A10 anyway. I got a picture somewhere with the different stations and an explanation. i will look for it. Otherwise a good source to get the propper and right info on the A10 is Deadman.

 

Further more i think that i read an article somewhere (have to look also) where is mentioned that the A10 is capable of carrying additional flare dispensers on a pod for certain missions. Have never seen any proove or detailed references of that though.

 

get in touch with Deadman. he is the man

[GGTharos]

The 480 flare thing is probably old news; the flare cartridges have been getting bigger and bigger in order to be more effective. The 25x52mm format flares are 15 per bucket, not 30.

[Feuerfalke]

No I trust you, I just want to provide concrete proof of how many chaff/flares each dispensers will carry so that ED can point to the docs and say 'here it is'. :)

 

Good work on the additional sources; the A-10A is wrong though, at least for current A-10A's. I wonder if more were added in an upgrade or something?

 

No worries - I started quoting all the sources, but at some time I just simply restated the number of dispensers named. Most numbers are from Janes.

[Chizh]

...12 AN/ALE-20 flare dispensers (192 flares) located six each on the lower surfaces of the horizontal stabilizers, and eight AN/ALE-24 chaff dispensers (four dispensers on the underside of each wing forward and between the flaps, with each dispenser carrying 1125 bundles).

What mean bundles?

[GGTharos]

The actual chaff charges - 1125 per dispenser. Given the B-52's RCS I'm not terribly surprised.

[Feuerfalke]

What mean bundles?

 

Bundles of Chaffs I guess.

 

The AN/ALE-24 was specifically designed for the B52 and holds "miniature" packages of chaffs for maximum dispersion. AFAIK it was used on all B52s.

Additionally the D has 6xAN/ALE-20 with a sum of 96 flares.

 

This site contains a lot of information on that BUFF:

http://www.vectorsite.net/avb52_2.html

[GGTharos]

Note what you quoted ... each dispenser carries 1125. You just might make more sense though. ;)

 

Edit: Looking at other sources, you are correct. Total is 1125.

Edited June 23, 2008 by GGTharos

[Chizh]

OK

What we can consider the standard chaff RR-170 amount as equivalent for all AN/ALE-24 bundles?

[Feuerfalke]

Logic and my little experience on the radar dictates, that these chaffs are probably smaller than standard-chaffs, but fired in bundles and scattered over a larger area. The B52 is a huge dot on the radar and you will only spoof an enemy missile or targeting radar, if the ghost you create is somewhat similar in size and a missile approaching won't be able to maintain the lock.

 

It's only my guess, but I'd say the number of 5 chaffs per dispenser each time it is actuated, scatters a number of 40 chaffs into the wingtip-turbulences and along the belly. That would make like 225 actuations and still a large cloud of miniature chaff. I'll try to look that up tomorrow.

[GGTharos]

Looks like the RR-185 is 0.8x2.8x4.8 inch chaff cartridge. This is 10.75m cubic inches compared to RR-170/RR-180 at 1x1x8 -> 8 cubic inches.

The B-52 uses RR-112, RR-149, RR-185, RR-ZZZ.

 

Information of all of these is difficult to find.

Edited June 23, 2008 by GGTharos

[Feuerfalke]

I just found this site about chaffs and systems used and how they work. Looks pretty interesting.

 

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/aircraft/systems/chaff.htm

[Groove]

Ze German Tornados dont have cartridges but a Chaff/Flare Dispenser Called BOZ-101.

 

I dont know the amount of flares yet but chaff is being "produced" by being cut off a 150 Meters Aluminium belt. It wont be easy to get the data on german tornados though.

[Chizh]

Ze German Tornados dont have cartridges but a Chaff/Flare Dispenser Called BOZ-101.

 

I dont know the amount of flares yet but chaff is being "produced" by being cut off a 150 Meters Aluminium belt. It wont be easy to get the data on german tornados though.

Thanks.

[Chizh]

What about

C-130

C-17A

E-2C

E-3A

KC-10A

S-3B

Mirage-2000-5

?

[GGTharos]

Still looking :)

[Chizh]

Still looking :)

Good.

 

Helicopters added in the list at 1-st post.

[GGTharos]

It looks like for a lot of aircraft the AN/ALE-47 has become a standard upgrade, therefore I suggest that, since maintenance and reliability issues are not simulated (I assume) for these systems, DCS standardizes to this system as well for aircraft that we do not have good details on and that are on this list.

 

The non-exchaustive list of aircraft using this system is:

 

Currently the AN/ALE-47 CMDS is fielded in 22 countries and is integrated on many different fixed-wing and rotary-wing aircraft. The AN/ALE-47 CMDS offers seamless integration onto many major airframes including: AH-1, AH-64, A-109, AV8 -B, AWCS, C-5, C-17,CV-22, CH-46, C-130, C-1141 B, E-8, E-2C, RC-135, F5, F15, F16, F/A-18, Grippen, H4-60, ICH, JSF, KC-135, KC-10, MH-47, MV-22, MH-60, MiG-21, MiG-29, MI-24, NIMROD, P-3, and SH-60.

 

From here:

 

http://www.symetrics.com/content/products/anale47/index.aspx?template=print

 

I'll try to find out number and layout of launchers.

[thereminqblank]

**Edit: information updated later in the thread

Edited June 26, 2008 by thereminqblank

[thereminqblank]

More info about the AN/ALE-47 on the BAE website: http://www.baesystems.com/ProductsServices/eis_s2_si_ale47.html

[Deadman]

The A-10 currently carries the MJU-11 with 30 holes. That can be loaded with either chaff or flares. The MJU-12 that has 15 holes for flares only. There are 16 dispensing canisters on the aircraft four on each wing tip and four behind each landing gear pod.It is normal for the caff to be loaded on the wing tips and flares to be loaded on the pods. Source The Moderen Hog guide

[Kusch]

What about

 

Mirage-2000-5

?

 

Eclair (Alkan LL5062) flare dispensers beneath the rear fuselage (in line with the wing trailing edge, each with 16 parachute-retarded flares)