Worrazen Posted February 5, 2021 Posted February 5, 2021 (edited) Hello What started out as a hunch about double guides & tutorials forums, grew into a much bigger idea around the low level restructuring. However even with just restructuring, leaving the layout and cosmetics completely alone, it may change the dynamic quite a bit, and it may take some time getting used to. The idea was to improve the home page experience and the rest, to split things up into more logically separated parts and to have these parts toggable so they can be truncated by the user, it also makes the home page shorter which is also a bonus, infact it would make it possible to make it even shorter, much more than it's possible right now. These are infact quite major changes that have a bit of work behind them, sorting topics for example, so this is obviously a proposition that may change and evolve over time as feedback comes in, so that it is well planned and organized before anything starts happening, if at all. The most optimal time period for this change to be finalized, I already figured could coincide when DCS 2.7 is released, as OB or as Release, it makes sense to minimize the frequency of changes and have it all in one package, tho this method in general doesn't always work but I think it could help in this case. Forum Structure Legend: Level 0 = Dark Violet = Master Sections - Collapsible / Toggable - Expanded by default Level 1 = Strong Red = Main Sections - Uncollapsible / Untoggable - Takes 1 short vertical slot and works as a separator on home page Level 2 = Orange = Main Forum Sections - Visible On Home Page - Takes 1 vertical slot Level 3 = Strong Blue = Sub Forum Sections - Visible On Home Page - Usually takes horizontal space only depending on amount Level 4 = Dark Emerald = Double-Sub Forum Sections - Not Visible On Home Page Note 1: Users cannot post into Level 0 or level 1, they're not considered forums, more like directories/separators. Note 2: The "lower" and "higher" may sound confusing, it is correct however. With this method we start with lowest number for the top most section of the forum structure, it does not mean that it is lower down the inverted tree, or deeper, it's the other way around, lowest number = top most, it helps if you invert it in your head. I just happened to pick this method. Rough overview of the current forum structure: News -- Official Updates -- Community News DCS World Tutorial & Training Range -- New User Briefing Room -- Guides & Tutorials --- DCS World Tutorial & Help Requests --- DCS World Tutorials ---- General Tutorials ---- Mission Editor Tutorials ---- Campaign Builder Tutorials ---- Multiplayer Tutorials --- Module Specific Tutorials --- 3rd Party Specific Tutorials English - Digital Combat Simulator -- DCS World 2.5 - DCS World War II - DCS World Topics -- Guides & Tutorials - Licensed Third Party Projects - Customer Support - Legacy Versions - Reality -- Chit Chat International support Russkij Unfortunately I haven't found the SiteMap for this new forum, I think the old one had it, a full list of the forum structure similar to this. I didn't spent all the time trying to recreate the existing forum structure, but there was no need to, this is enough because we only need a quick comparison which we can check ourselfs manually on the forum easily, and I've focused only on the lower levels that matter for the home page so it works out. END OF POST #1 - CONTINUES ON NEXT POST Edited February 5, 2021 by Worrazen 1 Modules: A-10C I/II, F/A-18C, Mig-21Bis, M-2000C, AJS-37, Spitfire LF Mk. IX, P-47, FC3, SC, CA, WW2AP, CE2. Terrains: NTTR, Normandy, Persian Gulf, Syria
Worrazen Posted February 5, 2021 Author Posted February 5, 2021 (edited) START OF POST #2 Proposed Low Level Forum Restructure: News -- Official Updates -- Community News DCS World Training Range [rename remove repetitive/redundant: "tutorial" ?] -- New User Briefing Room -- Guides & Tutorials [move to this root: corresponding topics from 2nd "Guides & Tutorials", and from other places, etc.] --- Tutorial Requests [rename from "DCS World Tutorial & Help Requests", remove "help" to avoid newcomers posting technical troubleshooting topics] --- Gameplay Tutorials [rename from "DCS World Tutorials", move non-corr. subforums out to level 2, delete "General Tutorials" and move corr. topics to this root] ---- Multiplayer Tutorials --- Mission Editor Tutorials --- Campaign Builder Tutorials --- ED Module Specific Tutorials [rename add prefix: "ED" ?] --- 3rd-Party Specific Tutorials DCS World Core [new, might just call it "DCS World", or "DCS World Home Base", or better ideas?] - Main Topics [new] -- DCS World 2.7 [placeholder, for potential forum restructuring occuring with 2.7 release] -- Multiplayer -- Maintenance Guides & Technical Help [rename from 2nd "Guides & Tutorials", move out non-corresponding topics, "help" will attract newcomers here] -- Input & Output [having this nearby will attract newcomers to the right place] -- Tournaments -- Screenshots & Videos - Modern Era Topics [placeholder, alt name post cold war] -- [placeholder - ideas welcome] - Cold War Era Topics [placeholder] -- [placeholder - ideas welcome] - WWII Era Topics [new] -- Western Europe 1944-1945 -- Pacific Theatre - Legacy DCS Versions -- DCS World 2.5 [read only? too soon? later?] -- DCS World 1.x (read-only) -- DCS World 2.0 Open Alpha Bugs & Problems DCS World Modules [new] - ED Modules [new] -- DLC Aircraft [new, move corresponding level 2 ED modules in here as level 3, disable posting new topics in this root?] --- DCS: AH-64D --- [etc, ... x14] --- DCS: Yak-52 -- DLC Static Campaigns [renamed from "DLC Campaigns", no child changes, disable posting new topcis in this root?] -- DLC Dynamic Campaigns [placeholder, potential dynamic campaign specific mission file format?, disable posting new topics in this root?] -- DLC Maps [disable posting new topics in this root?] -- DLC Others [new, move corresponding level 2 ED module forums in here as level 3, disable posting new topics in this root?] --- DCS: Combined Arms --- DCS: NCS 430 - ED WWII Modules [renamed from "DCS World War II" - no child changes] -- DCS: Bf 109 K-4 Kurfurst -- [etc, ... x6] -- DCS: WWII Assets Pack - 3rd-Party Modules [renamed from "Licensed Third Party Projects", no child changes, perhaps mention licensing, etc .. in description] -- Aerges -- [etc, ... x10] -- Ugra Media - Legacy ED Modules [new] -- Lock On: Flaming Cliffs 1 & 2 [move from "Legacy Versions"] - Legacy 3rd-Party Modules [new] -- Veao Simulations [move from "Legacy Versions"] DCS World Mission Area [new] -- Mission Editor Discussion & Questions -- Missions & Campaigns --- Multiplayer Missions & Campaigns -- Dynamic Missions & Campaigns [placeholder, for potential dynamic campaign specific file format?] --- Multiplayer Dynamic Missions & Campaigns [placeholder] DCS World Modding Hangar [new] -- 3D Modelling -- Apps [new, move here corr. topics from "Mods & Apps" root only, desc: 3rd-party app discussion and help that is specific to modding] -- Mods [renamed from "DCS Mods", move here corr. topics from "Mods and Apps" root only and move out uncorresponding topics] --- Lock On Mods -- How To -- Liveries and Skinning Customer Support -- Payment and Activation -- Forum and Site Issues International Support -- Deutsch -- Francais -- Espanol -- Italian -- Chinese Reality -- Military and Aviation -- PC Hardware and Related Software -- Chit-Chat Russkij [no changes proposed - not analyzed] Additional notes: Some changes aren't reflected in the comments of the above list, because things that are removed aren't listed, because I had to make this list from scratch (I should have asked staff to provide SiteMap lol) I cut some corners and didn't include everything that wasn't directly necessary, however everything for levels 0, 1 and 2 is listed and present, so if something for those levels in the proposed list doesn't exist, it means we get rid of it (deleted). Items for levels 3 and 4 are either totally not present, semi, or fully listed depending on the situation, in all unlisted cases levels 3 and 4 remain the same as they are in the existing forum structure. If there's any changes, it will be listed. Technical note: Technically forum staff could just recreate this by creating everything new and then filling/resorting/moving things that way, but I took the method of renaming things where possible, the underlying method doesn't matter in practice and whatever method makes most sense there should be used, just to explain that this is a final practical view, so if the forum software works prefers creating new rather than renaming existing things then so be it. END OF POST #2 - CONTINUES ON NEXT POST Edited February 5, 2021 by Worrazen 1 Modules: A-10C I/II, F/A-18C, Mig-21Bis, M-2000C, AJS-37, Spitfire LF Mk. IX, P-47, FC3, SC, CA, WW2AP, CE2. Terrains: NTTR, Normandy, Persian Gulf, Syria
Worrazen Posted February 5, 2021 Author Posted February 5, 2021 (edited) START OF POST #3 - CONTINUING Specific Issue - Double Guides & Tutorials Issue AND Maintenance / Help / Troubleshooting / General Issue Proliferation: I noticed there seems to be double Guides & Tutorials sections, one in DCS World Tutorial and Training Range and the one in DCS World Topics under English. I will also be referring to them as the first and second one. 1. Guides & Tutorials https://forums.eagle.ru/forum/42-guides-amp-tutorials/ 2. Guides & Tutorials https://forums.eagle.ru/forum/64-guides-tutorials/ A list of usual places for such maintenance / technical / troubleshooting discussions, possibility of, and/or where they happen to be tolerated: The DCS World Tutorial & Help Requests section in the 1st Guides & Tutorials forum (in DCS World Tutorial & Training Range) The General Tutorials section in the 1st Guides & Tutorials forum (in DCS World Tutorial & Training Range) The Mission Editor Tutorials section in the 1st Guides & Tutorials forum (in DCS World Tutorial & Training Range) The Bugs & Problems root section in the DCS World 2.5 forum. The General Questions section in the DCS World 2.5 forum. The Game Performance section in the DCS World 2.5 forum. The Intallation Problems section in the DCS World 2.5 forum. The Game Crash section in the DCS World 2.5 forum. The Steam Support section in the DCS World 2.5 forum. The 2nd Guides & Tutorials in the DCS World Topics under English I was browsing and actively analyzing these locations while I was making this list, I can see many threads that don't fit in there, module specific questions, other things, however, there is ofcourse with every forum and section some leeway, where something doesn't fit in any other place or the author doesn't know where it fits in best and hopefully tries best. In this case I see some totally offtopic things in some of these places. The biggest thing that stands out is the DCS World Tutorial & Training Range's Guides & Tutorials (1st) where there's threads that could fit in the other existing locations, if the Training Range is suppose to be in my opinion about gameplay that is. I didn't want to shake things up too much because I lack the ultimate solution my self, I only thought it be a good idea if we re-consider what the Training Range should be, should it be a place for all tutorials, including technical, gameplay, missions, and multiplayer, apps, etc. Or not? Secondly, no pun intended, the second Guides & Tutorials in English is also mixed with gameplay and technical stuff, that's actualy not a problem in it self, if it's a tutorial it fits the criteria, but if the Training Range provided a great number of new forums for gameplay oriented stuff, then it's fair for the technical stuff to also get it's own (albeit smaller) place/recognition as well IMO. Out of all the proposals in this mega post, this I happen to be vouching on more personal level, because I'm someone who has historically posted and discussed around these maintenance/technical areas quite a lot. I guess one could call it I'm a bit biased here, but I try to propose this with some objective reasons backing it as well. I was honestly looking for a place to post a rather more general and technical guide (relevant to DCS but not gameplay) to avoid posting it in Game Performance or similar for example. I think I may have found one factor that makes some new users gravitate to that place. First the forum is positioned higher on the home page, however I think that actually makes sense for other reasons I wouldn't want to change it because of this alone. I think the "help" word may be working like a strong magnet. Then, DCS World Tutorials description mentions how it's following subsections are for "general issues with DCS". I think that "general issues" is or it could be another of the factors, in the mind of many as another term for technical help and maintenance type of discussion. I my initial idea is reflected in the proposed forum structure list, which is trying to enforce/provide a more gameplay-oriented discussion on the Training Range and a rename of the 2nd Guides & Tutorials (in English) to empower these types of technical and general DCS maintenance guide and utility support threads that have been historically there, some of them pinned even. This should help draw in those types of posts and visitors and keeps it away from proliferating elsewhere. END OF POST #3 - CONTINUES ON NEXT POST Edited February 5, 2021 by Worrazen Modules: A-10C I/II, F/A-18C, Mig-21Bis, M-2000C, AJS-37, Spitfire LF Mk. IX, P-47, FC3, SC, CA, WW2AP, CE2. Terrains: NTTR, Normandy, Persian Gulf, Syria
Worrazen Posted February 5, 2021 Author Posted February 5, 2021 (edited) START OF POST #4 - CONTINUING Specific Issue - New DLC Aircraft section: In this case I put the long list of ED modules into DLC Aircraft, while that will considerable shorten the length of the home page, it may actually affect the feeling on the home page for people who are used to go there very frequently so it's something that needs to be thought about, but DCS is expanding and more thigns are going to be added, so I guess it's not too early to consider this. Also, I had in mind splitting Helos, but decided against that, sometimes too much splitting ends up being more confusing. Specific Issue - New DLC Others section: Some things don't fit in DLC Aircraft anymore, I had to make another section for those, there's probably room for improvement here, any better terms are welcome. Specific Issue - New DCS World Mission Area master section: Looking for suitable naming, thanks to the DCS World Tutorial & Training Range for inspiration, but then I realized it coincides with military terminology as well. Alternative name is DCS World Mission Zone This section's content wasn't my focus yet, but I feel it has more potential. More experienced mission builders might be able to give better feedback here if they wish any further and deeper changes. Specific Issue - New DCS World Modding Hangar master section: Another interesting naming also inspired by the DCS World Tutorial & Training Range. Alternative name could be DCS World Modding Station ... however "station" could perhaps tend to conflict with weapon stations and pylons, right? This section's content wasn't my focus yet, but I feel it has more potential. More seasoned modders might have better ideas if they wish any further and deeper changes in this section. (even tho I was historically big into game modding, I've yet to dig into DCS modding, oh well) Specific Issue - DCS WW 2 Section Particularities, Era/Timeline discussion: There are two forums in the WW2 section that aren't official module specific, they're of a general discussion type. It probably makes sense for WW2 stuff to also be consistent with the logical splitting method, because WW2 content is and most likely will keep expanding greately, it will not be optimal anymore to keep putting all the forums in one place there. In general, era/timeline sorted discussion forums do have a valid purpose in it self indeed, in the current proposal I've added these sections as part of the DCS World Core, not giving it it's own master section because currently there are not many forums of this type and having too much splits also isn't optimal for other reasons. It could as well be spinned off depending on the evolution of this proposal and the feedback, the "missing" era/timelines for cold-war and modern would need to be created preferrably, as mentioned, only 2 sections(forums) exist in the category right now, Western Europe 1944-1945 and Pacific Theatre. END OF POST #4 Edited February 5, 2021 by Worrazen Modules: A-10C I/II, F/A-18C, Mig-21Bis, M-2000C, AJS-37, Spitfire LF Mk. IX, P-47, FC3, SC, CA, WW2AP, CE2. Terrains: NTTR, Normandy, Persian Gulf, Syria
Worrazen Posted February 5, 2021 Author Posted February 5, 2021 Reserved - 2 Modules: A-10C I/II, F/A-18C, Mig-21Bis, M-2000C, AJS-37, Spitfire LF Mk. IX, P-47, FC3, SC, CA, WW2AP, CE2. Terrains: NTTR, Normandy, Persian Gulf, Syria
Worrazen Posted February 5, 2021 Author Posted February 5, 2021 Reserved - 3 Modules: A-10C I/II, F/A-18C, Mig-21Bis, M-2000C, AJS-37, Spitfire LF Mk. IX, P-47, FC3, SC, CA, WW2AP, CE2. Terrains: NTTR, Normandy, Persian Gulf, Syria
Worrazen Posted February 5, 2021 Author Posted February 5, 2021 @BIGNEWYAnother pack of hours later I think I've got this beast under control, this new thread should work now. Sorry for the inconvenience. Modules: A-10C I/II, F/A-18C, Mig-21Bis, M-2000C, AJS-37, Spitfire LF Mk. IX, P-47, FC3, SC, CA, WW2AP, CE2. Terrains: NTTR, Normandy, Persian Gulf, Syria
ED Team BIGNEWY Posted February 9, 2021 ED Team Posted February 9, 2021 Thank you for your feedback, we have made some changes. Forum rules - DCS Crashing? Try this first - Cleanup and Repair - Discord BIGNEWY#8703 - Youtube - Patch Status Windows 11, NVIDIA MSI RTX 3090, Intel® i9-10900K 3.70GHz, 5.30GHz Turbo, Corsair Hydro Series H150i Pro, 64GB DDR @3200, ASUS ROG Strix Z490-F Gaming, PIMAX Crystal
Lange_666 Posted February 10, 2021 Posted February 10, 2021 Honestly, it's a mess right now, certainly the DCS World 2.5 + the subforum around bugs. Win11 Pro 64-bit, Ryzen 5800X3D, Corsair H115i, Gigabyte X570S UD, EVGA 3080Ti XC3 Ultra 12GB, 64 GB DDR4 G.Skill 3600. Monitors: LG 27GL850-B27 2560x1440 + Samsung SyncMaster 2443 1920x1200, HOTAS: Warthog with Virpil WarBRD base, MFG Crosswind pedals, TrackIR4, Rift-S, Elgato Streamdeck XL. Personal Wish List: A6 Intruder, Vietnam theater, decent ATC module, better VR performance!
Worrazen Posted February 11, 2021 Author Posted February 11, 2021 I actually liked the meaning of the changes overall, but yeah, there seems to be some issue the way this was applied, and is viewed from the parent DCS 2.5 forum. Viewing the DCS 2.5 forum, you get the preview of each of the 2 sections. There is inconsistency with both. The preview of the Bugs & Problems section is a a big continious list of uninterruptable subforums, whereas if you view the Bugs & Problems section on it's own specifically, it has it's what I think is the intended structuring, separated quite a bit, which makes sense. I think it should display that same structure when viewed from the DCS 2.5 forum otherwise it's kinda less useful, most people won't click on the Bugs & Problems subsection link. If not possible, then perhaps it's better to keep Bug & Problems as a link only, without any preview of what's inside. (It was a Forum before) And then the Customer Support section, which looks like it was moved to DCS 2.5 and does actually not contain anything else other than the 2 forums it already had on the main page, that is if you view it specifically (directly on the link), but when it is viewed from the DCS 2.5 it includes DCS Wishlist, Sim Research and Steam Support. Which gives me a clue that something didn't go right with the forum system fully there. If DCS 2.5 is to be made read-only forum in the future with it's subforums as well, as well as support and technical stuff specific to that version, then it kinda doesn't make sense to pair Forum & Site Issues and Payment & Activation with which is more broad and quite not related. What I really like the most is the sorting idea of the Bugs & Problems section, as well as the labeling of the subforums. However not sure if it was really intended to fit Sim Research into Customer Support section? Modules: A-10C I/II, F/A-18C, Mig-21Bis, M-2000C, AJS-37, Spitfire LF Mk. IX, P-47, FC3, SC, CA, WW2AP, CE2. Terrains: NTTR, Normandy, Persian Gulf, Syria
Lange_666 Posted February 11, 2021 Posted February 11, 2021 (edited) The overall forum layout may look good but if you look a bit deeper then there are still problems (at least the way i see it). A few examples: - There are 2 subfourms in "Guides & Tutorials" which can tribute confusion to post what where: one called "Guides World Tutorials" and the other "Guides World Tutorials & Help Requests". - People post requests for (specific) help in the Guides & Tutorials section because it has a subforum called, Guides World Tutorials & Help Requests". How does a person which post a topic with the title "New User with vr" end up here? Did he look for a solution for a VR problem but lost his way navigating through the forums, saw the Help Request part of the subforum in Guides & Tutorials and thought... Yeah, finally i can lay my egg. However, there are not many people passing by that section to incubate his egg. I do like the fact that some subforums are now linked, example is the VR Bugs section, it's good you end up in the same place from either way you navigate the forums. Keeps things together. Edited February 11, 2021 by Lange_666 Win11 Pro 64-bit, Ryzen 5800X3D, Corsair H115i, Gigabyte X570S UD, EVGA 3080Ti XC3 Ultra 12GB, 64 GB DDR4 G.Skill 3600. Monitors: LG 27GL850-B27 2560x1440 + Samsung SyncMaster 2443 1920x1200, HOTAS: Warthog with Virpil WarBRD base, MFG Crosswind pedals, TrackIR4, Rift-S, Elgato Streamdeck XL. Personal Wish List: A6 Intruder, Vietnam theater, decent ATC module, better VR performance!
Worrazen Posted February 20, 2021 Author Posted February 20, 2021 The new sections for "Su-25T (Free With DCS World)" and for the P-51D with the note of being free with DCS world makes sense, I like that. Modules: A-10C I/II, F/A-18C, Mig-21Bis, M-2000C, AJS-37, Spitfire LF Mk. IX, P-47, FC3, SC, CA, WW2AP, CE2. Terrains: NTTR, Normandy, Persian Gulf, Syria
D4n Posted February 25, 2021 Posted February 25, 2021 Thanks for all the time you put into this, Worrazen! DCS Wishlist: 2K11 Krug SA-4 Ganef SAM, VR-TrackIR icons next to player names in score-chart PvP: 100+ manual player-kills with Stingers on a well known dynamic campaign server - 100+ VTOL FARP landings & 125+ hours AV-8B, F-14 crew, royal dutch airforce F-16C - PvP campaigns since 2013 DCS server-admins: please adhere to a common sense gaming industry policy as most server admins throughout the industry do. (After all there's enough hostility on the internet already which really doesn't help anyone. Thanks.) Dell Visor VR headset, Ryzen 5 5600 (6C/12T), RTX 4060 - basic DCS-community rule-of-thumb: Don't believe bad things that a PvP pilot claims about another PvP pilot without having analyzed the existing evidence
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